Star Wars Episode 8: The Last Jedi (2017)

[Ewa PGH Fan]

I liked the Force Awakens for what it was when it released and I still think it's ok. I rate it below the prequels, but that's mostly because even for all their flaws they were at least original. TFA was a complete remake and not as good as the original.

I absolutely hated the last Jedi, it is one of the worst films I have ever watched. It is slow and plodding, the pacing is atrocious, the plot makes no sense, the leaders are both sides are complete idiots, the movie wasted 45 minutes to tell us that capitalism, animal cruelty and slavery are bad, Luke projects himself across the galaxy to save the day so there's no danger, but dies anyway for no reason, the hyperspace ramming contradicts previous Star Wars lore, there's no way out of the base at the end, and Rose gives the most cringe worthy line I have ever heard in a movie after dooming the resistance, but actually there is a way out even though we just said there wasn't lulz, which just made the entire assault on that cannon dumb and pointless. And there is tons of stuff I didn't even list, this movie makes my brain hurt.

As for Rey I don't hate her character because she is female. That's a narrative that's being pushed to deflect blame. I dislike Rey because she is a master of the force with no training, she has no character arc so she doesn't grow and she is perfect so it is impossible for anyone to relate to her. She is badly written, period. It would be every bit as bad if she was male, transgender, an alien, Donald Trump, whatever. Her gender is irrelevant.

Where do you get that she is a master of the force?
She is highly sensitive to the force much like Luke (and his father) and can channel it very easily (forec is strong in her) but is very raw in her control and far from a master which is why she is seeking out Luke for training in the first place. Just because she can do things we've never seen before doesn't make her a master in any sense of the word.

 

[Ewa PGH Fan]

Good post.

Except Kylo is not Sith. Vader was the last Sith.

Oh Yeah, he's trying to become the next evolution of what a Sith was. Just sub heel for Sith.

 

[Destroydacre]

Where do you get that she is a master of the force?
She is highly sensitive to the force much like Luke (and his father) and can channel it very easily (forec is strong in her) but is very raw in her control and far from a master which is why she is seeking out Luke for training in the first place. Just because she can do things we've never seen before doesn't make her a master in any sense of the word.

She learns about the force and without training performs a mind trick on a stormtrooper. She uses force pull better than Kylo Ren for Anakin's lightsaber, something that he desperately wants, and then she beats him in a duel. She fights off Snoke's guards better than Kylo does and then saves him. After one "training" session with Luke and having known about the force for a couple days, she can lift tons of rocks, with minimal effort.

Being able to channel the force is not the same as being able to control it. We saw that Jedi train from toddlerhood to be able to do what they do. "A jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind." But that means nothing to Rey. She does in days without any serious training what other Jedi take years maybe even decades to accomplish.

 

[FaCe-LeE-uS]

I understand the gripes over the hasty developments with the characters. I too have problems with it, but I don't let it get in the way of me not enjoying the films. I'll be a Star Wars fan no matter what.

My biggest gripes with VIII was over Skywalker & Snoke. For such powerful characters they got very limited amounts of screen time. The direction they headed was a lot different than I thought they would go. I was hoping to see a lot more development for both Kylo Ren & Rey. Not that its wrong, but again they stuck with the fast-tracked development theme. We are basically being forced to understand that both Kylo Ren & Rey are going to be jedi masters by episode IX since they killed off everyone that stood in the way of that development. They are now the alpha leaders of both good & bad (light/dark). Definitely stretches the imagination to make those assumptions based on what little we've seen of both of their training & background. They have spent too much time invested into the Resistance subplots IMO. But that is what the writers chose to focus on.

I also wasn't a fan of some of the subplots they forced into the mix in VIII. But I still think it was a decent movie. VII & Rogue One were much better about their plotlines. Haven't seen the Solo movie yet so I can't comment on that just yet.

 

[Roy Munson]

She learns about the force and without training performs a mind trick on a stormtrooper. She uses force pull better than Kylo Ren for Anakin's lightsaber, something that he desperately wants, and then she beats him in a duel. She fights off Snoke's guards better than Kylo does and then saves him. After one "training" session with Luke and having known about the force for a couple days, she can lift tons of rocks, with minimal effort.

Being able to channel the force is not the same as being able to control it. We saw that Jedi train from toddlerhood to be able to do what they do. "A jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind." But that means nothing to Rey. She does in days without any serious training what other Jedi take years maybe even decades to accomplish.

you know this from your how many years experience with this fictional force?

 

[juliansteed]

She learns about the force and without training performs a mind trick on a stormtrooper. She uses force pull better than Kylo Ren for Anakin's lightsaber, something that he desperately wants, and then she beats him in a duel. She fights off Snoke's guards better than Kylo does and then saves him. After one "training" session with Luke and having known about the force for a couple days, she can lift tons of rocks, with minimal effort.

Being able to channel the force is not the same as being able to control it. We saw that Jedi train from toddlerhood to be able to do what they do. "A jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind." But that means nothing to Rey. She does in days without any serious training what other Jedi take years maybe even decades to accomplish.

Don't forget that she was able to use the Force to fuck with Kylo Ren's head when he was trying to do exactly that to her.

Other accomplishments that may or may not be attributable to The Force:

She's an ace pilot with the Millennium Falcon.
She knows more about how to fix the Falcon than Han Solo or Chewie.
When she's not flying the Falcon, she's scoring 3 Tie-Fighter take downs with a single shot.
She knows how to swim despite leaving a desert planet for the first time in her life only a few days ago.
She can speak Wookie despite obviously not having much of an education, and only ever living on a planet that doesn't seem to be full of wookies.

Whether or not this is all part of a feminist agenda where they can't have their strong female character look weak, or it's simply bad story telling, I have no idea. But I'm not sure how anyone can deny that Rey is pretty much the definition of a Mary Sue and there really isn't anything interesting about her character upto this point. The Force vision was kind of cool after the Skywalker lightsaber called out to her (would also be nice to know why that happened), but then all that was pretty much dismissed in Episode 8. Hopefully Abrams can come in in Episode 9 and tie up some of the loose ends he created in Episode 7.

 

[juliansteed]

As for Luke, well he was the son of "the chosen one" and was basically the grandson of The Force itself. He still wasn't able to just be awesome at everything he did right off the bat. In A New Hope he needed his old man guardian Jedi to save him twice early in the movie, once from the sand people and once from some bullies in a bar. We saw him struggle with his early training causing the non-believer Han Solo to mock him. He later gets mocked by the damsel in distress that he's rescuing (not yet known she's his sister). He needs his droid to save him and the others from being crushed in the trash compactor. He finally uses the Force at the end to help him blow up the Death Star in the movie's climax but even that wasn't all Force. They set it up with a line he made earlier that he had lots of experience with similar type shots. And he never gets a chance to take that shot in the first place if not for the redemption arc of Han Solo.

Empire Strikes Back, we see him pull his light saber out of the snow to escape from the Wompa. That was kind of made to be a big deal and to show that he's been progressing with The Force between the 2 movies in which there was a much larger time gap than the first 2 movies of the recent trilogy. Even then he still can't just do everything himself and needed Han Solo to complete his rescue. After that he pretty much fails or struggles at just about everything (physically, mentally, and emotionally) the rest of the movie resulting in a decisive loss to the series' main villain where he loses his hand and light saber.

Finally in ROTJ he completes the hero's journey but not without a scare of possibly going to the dark side. His jedi mind tricks failed on Jabba but aside from that he pretty much dominated the opening act. He later gets the W over Vader but then the Emperor completely owns him. and yet again needed someone else to come in and save him.

Male, female, white, black, gay, straight, incestuous or not, doesn't really matter to me. I find Luke's arc to be far more interesting than Rey's in this trilogy. I'm still hoping for the best in 9 though.

 

[FaCe-LeE-uS]

Don't forget that she was able to use the Force to fuck with Kylo Ren's head when he was trying to do exactly that to her.

Other accomplishments that may or may not be attributable to The Force:

She's an ace pilot with the Millennium Falcon.
She knows more about how to fix the Falcon than Han Solo or Chewie.
When she's not flying the Falcon, she's scoring 3 Tie-Fighter take downs with a single shot.
She knows how to swim despite leaving a desert planet for the first time in her life only a few days ago.
She can speak Wookie despite obviously not having much of an education, and only ever living on a planet that doesn't seem to be full of wookies.

Whether or not this is all part of a feminist agenda where they can't have their strong female character look weak, or it's simply bad story telling, I have no idea. But I'm not sure how anyone can deny that Rey is pretty much the definition of a Mary Sue and there really isn't anything interesting about her character upto this point. The Force vision was kind of cool after the Skywalker lightsaber called out to her (would also be nice to know why that happened), but then all that was pretty much dismissed in Episode 8. Hopefully Abrams can come in in Episode 9 and tie up some of the loose ends he created in Episode 7.

Well can't most of this be explained by her apparent grifter/junkie trade?

Ace pilot... She seems to know how to drive all sorts of vehicles from the start.

Mechanical skills... Junkie trade easily crosses that off the list.

Good shot... Yea that seems like a force instinctual type move. Pretty basic concept so its not that far of a reach.

Swim... Well this one takes a lot more imagination lol. Maybe there's a bath-house she learned how, or maybe a ship she pillaged had some sort of liquid tank where she learned. Who knows.

Languages... Her trade forces her to learn different languages. Junkie life is assumed to be centered around coming into contact with thousands of different life-forms. It wouldn't be that much of a farce to assume that someone that she came in contact with in her line of work knew how to speak Wookie.

 

[juliansteed]

Well can't most of this be explained by her apparent grifter/junkie trade?

Ace pilot... She seems to know how to drive all sorts of vehicles from the start.

Mechanical skills... Junkie trade easily crosses that off the list.

Good shot... Yea that seems like a force instinctual type move. Pretty basic concept so its not that far of a reach.

Swim... Well this one takes a lot more imagination lol. Maybe there's a bath-house she learned how, or maybe a ship she pillaged had some sort of liquid tank where she learned. Who knows.

Languages... Her trade forces her to learn different languages. Junkie life is assumed to be centered around coming into contact with thousands of different life-forms. It wouldn't be that much of a farce to assume that someone that she came in contact with in her line of work knew how to speak Wookie.

Yes I meant to mention that her background could explain some mechanical skills as well as some level of competence in other areas but to simply be amazing (not just good) at everything is a boring character to me. Obviously not everyone feels that way and that's fine.

 

[FaCe-LeE-uS]

Yes I meant to mention that her background could explain some mechanical skills as well as some level of competence in other areas but to simply be amazing (not just good) at everything is a boring character to me. Obviously not everyone feels that way and that's fine.

Understandable. Like you, I'm a much bigger fan of Luke's arc than Rey's. Aside from Rogue One it seems like all the new movies are focusing more on sideplots & letting Rey's journey fast-track her to being a jedi master. Feels like we are being forced to understand that Rey's emergence is more about the "balance of light vs dark" than it is about her "becoming a jedi".

 

[Destroydacre]

you know this from your how many years experience with this fictional force?

You could literally make this case about any piece of fiction and dismiss any faults in any piece of media because it's "fiction." But it's a non argument. Good writing follows certain characteristics. Some of these include consistency and logical progression of events. That's not to say that the Original Trilogy doesn't have its flaws because it does. Even Empire, which is widely regarded as the best Star Wars film and even one of the best movies of all time, is not perfect. Movies are free to break from the mold as well, but you have to tread carefully if you do so. Rey's leap from average Jane to user of the force basically at the snap of a finger with zero training is inconsistent and while I would be fully willing to entertain that it is possible for her to be this powerful this quickly, why she is that way is never explained, thus it is nonsensical (not logical) with what we know from the previous films. You see you can make the force do whatever you want. But it still needs to make sense within the established universe.

 

[wildturkey]

More Episode 9 news

Billy Dee Williams is back as Lando


I hope its just a cameo where he shows up and says "I heard Han died. I'm just here for my ship"

 

[FaCe-LeE-uS]

More Episode 9 news

Billy Dee Williams is back as Lando


I hope its just a cameo where he shows up and says "I heard Han died. I'm just here for my ship"

Was curious if he would ever show up in these films. His story was left unfinished so I figured they would find a way to weave him back into the story.

 

[wildturkey]

Was curious if he would ever show up in these films. His story was left unfinished so I figured they would find a way to weave him back into the story.

It's pure fan speculation but there's some thought they might be trying to shoehorn Lando into a bit of Leia's role, at least militarily, for the film. Episode 9 was suppose to be a heavy Leia film but obviously that's no longer the case since Fisher died and they don't appear (haven't confirmed I don't think) to be doing the CGI route or recasting her. It could work. Just say Lando became some General/politician after the Endor battle in RotJ

 

[FaCe-LeE-uS]

It's pure fan speculation but there's some thought they might be trying to shoehorn Lando into a bit of Leia's role, at least militarily, for the film. Episode 9 was suppose to be a heavy Leia film but obviously that's no longer the case since Fisher died and they don't appear (haven't confirmed I don't think) to be doing the CGI route or recasting her. It could work. Just say Lando became some General/politician after the Endor battle in RotJ

That would definitely work. Not sure I would want them to cgi Leia much. Hopefully they give her a valiant sendoff. Something that would have worked well in place of purple hair saving the fleet. Leia deserved that death more than that nobody.

Which also brings up another gripe lol... How the hell did Leia suddenly figure out how to use the Force? Don't recall getting any explanation into that.

 

[calsnowskier]

That would definitely work. Not sure I would want them to cgi Leia much. Hopefully they give her a valiant sendoff. Something that would have worked well in place of purple hair saving the fleet. Leia deserved that death more than that nobody.

Which also brings up another gripe lol... How the hell did Leia suddenly figure out how to use the Force? Don't recall getting any explanation into that.

In the EU (granted, non-canon now), she was a force user, to an extent. While not a trained Jedi, she did use her connection to the force in her political dealings. In the books, all Force users had different gifts. Jaena (Han and Leias daughter) was a medic. Jayson (Jaena’s twin brother) was a pilot/swordsman (??? I forget his focus). Anakin (H&L youngest son) was a wiz with droids and anything mechanical. Leia could sense peoples intentions.

Luke and his father (original Anakin) were special messiahs with multiple skills.

 

[DragonfromTO]

That would definitely work. Not sure I would want them to cgi Leia much. Hopefully they give her a valiant sendoff. Something that would have worked well in place of purple hair saving the fleet. Leia deserved that death more than that nobody.

Which also brings up another gripe lol... How the hell did Leia suddenly figure out how to use the Force? Don't recall getting any explanation into that.

She probably went to the same place that Connie went between Godfather 2 and 3, where they instantly turned her from a whiny baby into a powerful decision maker in the Corleone family

 

[Xponentialchaos]

Why does everyone assume Solo Jr. was telling the truth about Rey's parents???
He was a sith telling Rey what he thought would turn her to his side/get her to join him. Why would he tell her the truth, if he really even knew it in the first place?
Luke had zero training and only had his heritage when Obi and then Yoda started training him. Luke was lied to about who is real parents were too for obvious reasons. I think we'll find out Rey's true heritage in IX.

I considered the possibility that Kylo is lying to Rey.

But if you listen to the dialogue, it's Rey who first says "My parents were nobodies" and Kylo confirms it. The fact that Rey seemed to know this all along makes it less likely that Kylo was not being honest with her IMO.

Of course, that could all change with whatever they decide to do in the last movie to salvage this mess.

 

[Roy Munson]

You could literally make this case about any piece of fiction and dismiss any faults in any piece of media because it's "fiction." But it's a non argument. Good writing follows certain characteristics. Some of these include consistency and logical progression of events. That's not to say that the Original Trilogy doesn't have its flaws because it does. Even Empire, which is widely regarded as the best Star Wars film and even one of the best movies of all time, is not perfect. Movies are free to break from the mold as well, but you have to tread carefully if you do so. Rey's leap from average Jane to user of the force basically at the snap of a finger with zero training is inconsistent and while I would be fully willing to entertain that it is possible for her to be this powerful this quickly, why she is that way is never explained, thus it is nonsensical (not logical) with what we know from the previous films. You see you can make the force do whatever you want. But it still needs to make sense within the established universe.

false... all of it.

 

[Cave_Johnson]

More Episode 9 news

Billy Dee Williams is back as Lando


I hope its just a cameo where he shows up and says "I heard Han died. I'm just here for my ship"

And then he goes in the back room and shoots his load inside a robot.