Saad as 2nd Line Center?

[gmalis1]

I love Q and don't disagree much with what he does, but trying a guy at center who has NEVER played there is just crazy. Refer to the Patrick Kane experiment.

Hawks have Toews, Handzus, Shaw and Kruger at center. Also, Sharp, Smith and Nordstrom can play center and have done so before. Add Pirri to that group who is a natural center.

 

[averagejoe]

It can't be copied for a couple of reasons:

I'm not disagreeing with you g, but I think the flavor behind the idea of copying the Hawks was to add more skill and speed players, which obviously could not be done in an off-season of free agency. It'll take time to evolve.

I am not talking goons, I am talking guys that will stand up. Were there even any fights last year with the hawks?

Actually, I looked up fighting stats courtesy of CBS Sports (of all places) and even I was surprised a little. The Hawks had 16 fighting majors last season. They were tied with 4 other teams. Two other teams had less fighting majors. Here's a look at the playoff opponents' fighting stats:

Wild - 24 fighting majors
Wings - 14 fighting majors
Kings - 19 fighting majors
Bruins - 32 fighting majors

Kind of found it interesting that the Wings had less fighting majors than the Hawks, and were the only team to force a game 7. Coincidence? Maybe not. Toughness makes for a nice topic. But "discipline" wins championships - in any sport.

And I do get what you're saying about the guys standing up for the core of our stars. But I still disagree that adding a tougher guy is the answer.

Some hits like the forearm Hossa took from the Nuck's Hansen was illegal. Best way to retaliate IMO is to score a PP goal. I think this is where the Hawks failed last season. If they started scoring on the PP, I feel that teams would back off. Lack of PP probably affected them more than lack of a tougher player.

But remember that Hossa also got hit with a puck in warm-ups against the Bruins and missed time. Nothing you can do about that.

That said, I'd just like to see the Hawks check the puck-carrier more. Period. When the other team carries the puck into the Hawks zone, and someone is skating with them stride for stride, it is LEGAL to HIT the guy with the puck. Yet the Hawks don't seem to do it? This is the most frustrating thing to me.

 

[gmalis1]

Just saying with the Hawks success of two Cups in four years, I see no reason to "goon it up".

Now, you have to be able to protect your players and especially your stars if someone comes head hunting, but hockey is a dangerous sport. Stuff happens all the time. It's not no-check and with any contact anyone can get injured.

I just know that StanB and Q have designed this team to be built around skill and speed and puck possession...not guys who can go out and maul someone. Personally, that NHL is gone. Some physicality is still present, but the game has changed so much that there really is no place for the rockem sockem NHL players of the past.

 

[HockeyDoug]

Give me a good forecheck over hitting anyday. Most teams have 2 to 4 dmen that can't do anything with the puck.

 

[anotheridiot]

And I do get what you're saying about the guys standing up for the core of our stars. But I still disagree that adding a tougher guy is the answer.

Some hits like the forearm Hossa took from the Nuck's Hansen was illegal. Best way to retaliate IMO is to score a PP goal. I think this is where the Hawks failed last season. If they started scoring on the PP, I feel that teams would back off. Lack of PP probably affected them more than lack of a tougher player.

But remember that Hossa also got hit with a puck in warm-ups against the Bruins and missed time. Nothing you can do about that.

That said, I'd just like to see the Hawks check the puck-carrier more. Period. When the other team carries the puck into the Hawks zone, and someone is skating with them stride for stride, it is LEGAL to HIT the guy with the puck. Yet the Hawks don't seem to do it? This is the most frustrating thing to me.

I get that, score that power play goal to get back at them, but the next 6 games Hossa is out, what is the best way to handle the thought process of taking out the stars? Toews is up to 5 or 6 concussions. Coming back in three or four games is not gonna be an option.

Look, we all agree the hawks have what almost no other team has in finesse, speed and discipline players. The time will come when teams just decide the only way to win is take out the stars. Teams did this alot in 2011-2012 season, as soon as kane got to the blue line he was hit. Hit him early and often. We have seem Q load up with Bollig and Bollig clearly saying he knows what got him to the nhl. When Q puts Bollig on the ice over a speed guy, its clear that Q knows when you need a deterrent on the bench. Saying Q does not buy into the hits is incorrect whenever Bollig is active.

 

[gmalis1]

I get that, score that power play goal to get back at them, but the next 6 games Hossa is out, what is the best way to handle the thought process of taking out the stars? Toews is up to 5 or 6 concussions. Coming back in three or four games is not gonna be an option.

Look, we all agree the hawks have what almost no other team has in finesse, speed and discipline players. The time will come when teams just decide the only way to win is take out the stars. Teams did this alot in 2011-2012 season, as soon as kane got to the blue line he was hit. Hit him early and often. We have seem Q load up with Bollig and Bollig clearly saying he knows what got him to the nhl. When Q puts Bollig on the ice over a speed guy, its clear that Q knows when you need a deterrent on the bench. Saying Q does not buy into the hits is incorrect whenever Bollig is active.

Point #1. Where do you get Hossa out for 6 games? So far, according to the Hawks, he's good to go for Tuesday.

Point #2. So how are you planning on preventing Toews, or any Hawks player, from getting a concussion and extended time off the ice to recover? Put them in bubble wrap. Sending some goon physical player on the ice to retaliate will stop it? Don't be ridiculous.

I would venture to guess that most concussions that hockey players get are non-intentional acts. It's not like someone is out head hunting, bashing them over the head with a stick or deliberately driving their head into the glass. Stuff like that just happens. I would think there are not any coaches in the NHL right now that target any player with the intent to injure. In the past, I would say so...I would even know so. But not any more.

Hockey is very fast violent sport played by huge guys on skates. Stuff happens. And you can't police it on your own. You just can't. Sending out big hulking guys that mash everyone into the boards doesn't send a message. It sends your guys to the penalty box or the other team on to the scorer's sheet because the puck winds up in your net.

You can think all you want that adding muscle will help alleviate ANY top tier player from getting injured. I say it doesn't. Not in this NHL any more.

I know we aren't supposed to attack anyone personally on this thread. But I can't understand your rationale at all with this line of thinking. It doesn't work for other teams, and it isn't the way the Blackhawks play.

 

[anotheridiot]

What you are not seeing is Hossa is being targeted in the playoffs, ends up missing the entire off season into the start of training camp with the injuries he received during the playoffs. When he gets taken out the first series, not the last series, how many games will he miss? Maybe 6? If there was one more series after he was hurt, how many games would he have missed? If he takes that shot tomorrow night, how many games will he miss?

You really did not pay attention to Toews in the post season did you? Did you miss the cross checks to the back of the head? That was not clean hockey. That was the bruins getting him out of the games, missed one with the concussion. The reason they take free shots against our superstars is because there is not any fear that their superstars will get any retaliation for those hits. There is no deterrent at all for our guys to get taken out. Boston is a bad example because their stars give as many cheap hits and are goons anyway, but you start counting the games our finesse players miss because they are given shots every game and let me know at the end of the season.

There is no way for you to even open your one track mind to this. Just like the bear season, I bring up the problems and nobody sees them until it all adds up to a loss and a terrible performance.

 

[JBM73]

I think we can debate this issue all season, but the fact remains that Q clearly believes in the need to carry a tough guy. I agree that the days of the purely one-dimensional John Scott-types are probably coming to a close, but I think we are FAR from seeing the end of tough guys as a whole. Having a guy who can stand up to other teams' tough guys provides not just a deterrent, but a psychological boost as well. Is that worth the cost of carrying a lesser-skilled player? From what I've seen, teams that have tried to go without one end up rectifying that more often than not.

 

[HockeyDoug]

The enforcers are there as a security blanket for the players, like a woobie. They don't deter and haven't deterred anything in the cap era. Players get paid by not being deterred. Toews and Hossa and Sharp and Crow are going to get hammered no matter what pile of trash they throw on skates. The only difference is that they're more likely to feel better about taking the hit if they THINK somebody is going to get payback.

Maybe carrying Bollig helps the Hawks indirectly but long gone are the days of goons and enforcers having a tangible benefit. I think the idea that Bollig is going to keep Toews or Hossa from getting run is ridiculous.

If Toews (I don't always trust his decision making) asks for a goon, he's going to get a goon and it's not going to help him from taking a cheap shot to the back of the head between the circles.

Default to skill if given the option, pray to the hockey gods for timely health (LA in 12' Hawks in 13' etc.) , and hope you picked guys willing to finish a pass as they get smeared. Deterrence died in the 90s.

 

[HockeyDoug]

People have been talking about the Hawks getting blown up for 5 years now and they have 3CF appearances and 2 rings. They're going to stop dressing Brookbank and Bollig later in the year and we'll hear the same complaints about the lack of physical play.

They aren't built to play to contact, they're built to beat teams that play to contact. A goon isn't necessary. Their record against the more physical teams in the league the last 5 years is excellent regardless of who was or wasn't dressed.

 

[gmalis1]

What you are not seeing is Hossa is being targeted in the playoffs, ends up missing the entire off season into the start of training camp with the injuries he received during the playoffs. When he gets taken out the first series, not the last series, how many games will he miss? Maybe 6? If there was one more series after he was hurt, how many games would he have missed? If he takes that shot tomorrow night, how many games will he miss?

You really did not pay attention to Toews in the post season did you? Did you miss the cross checks to the back of the head? That was not clean hockey. That was the bruins getting him out of the games, missed one with the concussion. The reason they take free shots against our superstars is because there is not any fear that their superstars will get any retaliation for those hits. There is no deterrent at all for our guys to get taken out. Boston is a bad example because their stars give as many cheap hits and are goons anyway, but you start counting the games our finesse players miss because they are given shots every game and let me know at the end of the season.

There is no way for you to even open your one track mind to this. Just like the bear season, I bring up the problems and nobody sees them until it all adds up to a loss and a terrible performance.

And the Hawks were choir boys in the Final. Poor Patrice Bergeron had broken ribs and a collapsed lung. I'm sure he didn't get them from falling down a flight of stairs on the way to the Bruins locker room.

Of course not...someone on the Hawks gave him a hard check, a legal check, against the boards probably in the corner.

Listen, hockey is a fast violent sport played on a very slippery surface. Injuries happen regardless of whether you have some hulk who can throw a punch or not. It's inevitable.

Was Hossa's back problem due to a dirty check? Of course not...no one has talked about that at all. Could have just been wear and tear on his back from all the incidental hits taken over the course of his very long hockey career, starting as a very young kid.

As HockeyDoug alluded to, do you really think that having one, two or three "tough guys" will prevent Hawks players from getting hit and possibly injured? It's doubtful. It's not a no-check league.

Once in a while you may see a dirty hit, a questionable hit, an intentional hit. But most of the injuries in the entire NHL are hits with no intent to injure.

Therefore, having someone "protect" your "stars" doesn't protect anyone.

You may think that it does, but the Hawks believe otherwise. Look at the roster StanB has put together.

 

[JBM73]

The enforcers are there as a security blanket for the players, like a woobie. They don't deter and haven't deterred anything in the cap era. Players get paid by not being deterred. Toews and Hossa and Sharp and Crow are going to get hammered no matter what pile of trash they throw on skates. The only difference is that they're more likely to feel better about taking the hit if they THINK somebody is going to get payback.

Maybe carrying Bollig helps the Hawks indirectly but long gone are the days of goons and enforcers having a tangible benefit. I think the idea that Bollig is going to keep Toews or Hossa from getting run is ridiculous.

Sorry, I don't think that's completely true. Living in the Philadelphia area now I end up watching the Flyers on a regular basis. Last year they started the season without a legit heavyweight tough guy. By the mid-point of the season, teams with legit heavies found that they COULD intimidate the Flyers with overly-physical play, because once the Flyers tried to get tough in return out came the other team's "enforcer", and either the Flyers shied away or they got beat up. Eventually, they realized they needed to fix this problem and acquired Jay Rosehill, who DID fix the problem. That was a fact you could see on the ice. The real question is whether or not Rosehill created more problems with his poor play than he fixed with his fists. That we can debate.

 

[anotheridiot]

And the Hawks were choir boys in the Final. Poor Patrice Bergeron had broken ribs and a collapsed lung. I'm sure he didn't get them from falling down a flight of stairs on the way to the Bruins locker room.

Of course not...someone on the Hawks gave him a hard check, a legal check, against the boards probably in the corner.

I am pretty sure Poor little Patrice that gave the cross checks to Toews in front of the net broke his ribs when he put Saad onto their bench, then down on the ice for the Hammer goal that was taken away because Saad was about to get a blade to the face laying on the ice. Either that or a missed check.

Thats the plan right, skate past the hit with the speed and let them go flailing into the glass right?

Its a lost cause, you will never see it, but rest assured, you watch the shit getting beat out of Kane and Toews the entire season and remember you wanted no deterrant. Even when they load up with Bollig, Smith and Hayes eventually with Rosie on the back end to give a little back.

 

[HockeyDoug]

Sorry, I don't think that's completely true. Living in the Philadelphia area now I end up watching the Flyers on a regular basis. Last year they started the season without a legit heavyweight tough guy. By the mid-point of the season, teams with legit heavies found that they COULD intimidate the Flyers with overly-physical play, because once the Flyers tried to get tough in return out came the other team's "enforcer", and either the Flyers shied away or they got beat up. Eventually, they realized they needed to fix this problem and acquired Jay Rosehill, who DID fix the problem. That was a fact you could see on the ice. The real question is whether or not Rosehill created more problems with his poor play than he fixed with his fists. That we can debate.

I see what you're saying and there may be an argument to support it but I think the Rosehill example is way too small of a sample size and most of the games were meaningless for PHI or their opposition at the end of last season. I think I only watched 2 of their games in April, so I certainly didn't see enough to have a very strong opinion about Rosehill one way or the other.

 

[HockeyDoug]

Should be interesting to see how Saad does if he's centering a line tonight.

 

[anotheridiot]

Should be interesting to see how Saad does if he's centering a line tonight.

Is he? I thought the experiment was over.

cool roster

team usa Kane, Hayes, Saad, Bollig, Smith
team canada Toews, sharp, Bickel, shaw
team svk/swe Hossa, Handzous, Nordstrom, Krueger

 

[gmalis1]

I am pretty sure Poor little Patrice that gave the cross checks to Toews in front of the net broke his ribs when he put Saad onto their bench, then down on the ice for the Hammer goal that was taken away because Saad was about to get a blade to the face laying on the ice. Either that or a missed check.

Thats the plan right, skate past the hit with the speed and let them go flailing into the glass right?

Its a lost cause, you will never see it, but rest assured, you watch the shit getting beat out of Kane and Toews the entire season and remember you wanted no deterrant. Even when they load up with Bollig, Smith and Hayes eventually with Rosie on the back end to give a little back.

You have the wrong game, wrong team, wrong series.

The disallowed Hjamarlsson goal with Saad on his back after being drilled into the bench was Game 7 of the conference semi-finals against Detroit.

Care to come up with another guess where Bergeron's broken ribs and punctured lung came from?

 

[gmalis1]

Should be interesting to see how Saad does if he's centering a line tonight.

Saad's not centering anything and won't be.

Bickell-Toews-Kane
Sharp-Handzus-Hossa
Saad-Shaw-Hayes
Nordstrom-Kruger-Bollig

Smith a healthy scratch.

 

[gmalis1]

BTW, WSCR had Stan B on this AM. He stated that Hossa is feeling great, better than he has in months, wanted to play in the final 2 preseason games but the Hawks sat him out.

Hossa claims he is good to go with no lingering issues.

We'll see.

 

[gmalis1]

I 'm guessing the Hawks have no fighters or goons because Stan B, his staff and Coach Q are idiots.

Sorry, but I'll take their judgement over yours any day.