my honest appraisal of RG3 and questions on what to do

[j_y19]

I never said he was great now. I said he has been great in the past and has that potential, more so than any other solution I have seen presented.

Please get my position straight.

Be happy to. Let me know when you do.

 

[skinsdad62]

OK, here are a couple of names. TJ Yates. Matt Moore. Brian Hoyer. Derek Anderson. Ryan Mallett. Matt Flynn. Mark Sanchez. Not world beaters by any means, but they are all experienced pocket passers that could do well in a gruden style offense. Oh, and they are all FAs next year.

ok so you are saying that this is the pool we will look at as a replacement for what we have ?

 

[skinsdad62]

I've got it right. Not sure what you are talking about.

well j-y19 the "gimmick " offense we ran was the fairly standard WCO

what "gimmick " offense did you think we ran ? the veer ? option ? wishbone ?

 

[j_y19]

well j-y19 the "gimmick " offense we ran was the fairly standard WCO

what "gimmick " offense did you think we ran ? the veer ? option ? wishbone ?

Really? That's what bothered you. The work gimmick? What is wrong with everybody today???

Sorry Dad, but IMO, we were running a gimmick offense at times that took the league by surprise and significantly contributed to the success we had. We no longer run much of it (Pistol???). Sure, it was based on WCO principles, I'll give you that.

 

[skinsdad62]

Really? That's what bothered you. The work gimmick? What is wrong with everybody today???

Sorry Dad, but IMO, we were running a gimmick offense at times that took the league by surprise and significantly contributed to the success we had. We no longer run much of it (Pistol???). Sure, it was based on WCO principles, I'll give you that.

and what gimmick was that ? the problem with gimmick it what the connotation of the word . it implies fluke not legit .

the PLAY you are alluding too is called the read option PLAY not offense but PLAAAY

and that PLAY was used in the superbowl champions offense yet i dont hear gimmick associated with its use there in seatle

it was used with the 49ers . perhaps you have forgotten , they have been to 2 nfc championship games and a superbowl appearance .. again i havent heard the word "gimmick " applied to them either

the pistol is a FORMATION , not an offense and the PISTOL FORMATION is used throughout the NFL

and we still run the PISTOL FORMATION no matter who the qb was . KC ran it Mccoy ran it

and again the above 2 teams ran it , PM has run plays from it as has brady , big ben , hoyer , luck etc etc etc

its a formation slightly different then the shotgun and not predicated on being able to run at qb . the eagles are in it quite a bit

so again i will go through it for you . we run the WCO . we line up in the pistol formation on occasion,to run WCO concepts and the READ OPTION PLAY

so we dont run a gimmick offense , we dont run a gimmick formation , we dont run a gimmick play

what we did have was an exceptional qb who could run the read option play out of the WCO from the pistol formation and that took the NFL by surprise because our qb runs it as good as anyone

and we ran said play about 100 times in both his rookie year and his injured year last year or about 10 % of the plays we ran and other team who had success as well the pistol formation was run quite a bit in years prior to rg3's entrance into the NFL however peopled passed

now if your opinion says we ran a gimmick offense then you are wrong . if you say the read option is a gimmick play then i will say it is no more a gimmick the running misdirection . and if you say the pistol formation is a gimmick i will say that you arent watching teams in the NFL much or are misidentifying the formation as a hole

in any case the facts dont back up your opinon

now your gut feelings are right . Rg3 needs work on reading defenses , holding the ball too long , staying healthy . and he isnt a franchise guy at this point by a long shot there we have common ground

 

[Sportster 72]

Round 4678428912486 <DING>

 

[martinez]

Round 4678428912486 <DING>

lmao yup, ive seen skinsdad explain the read option to people many times.

 

[ElTexan]

You want Sam Bradford instead of Colt McCoy. Right.

 

[Sportster 72]

Unlike you we judged both Cousins and Griffin fairly, by what they did on the field and not by what the teeam did or did not give up for them. You dismiss the entire 2012 season as a fluke yet continued to hang your hat on one good game by Cousins that year, in Cleveland.

We tried to explain to you what Cousins was. You excused it away by claiming the last 3 games last year somehow did not count. Then you call the Griff fans who have acknowledges Griff's shortcomings as nothing more than excuse makers. Then Cousins turns out to be exactly what I told you he was. Seriously dude how can we take your opinion on the QB seriously after what I've seen from you.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

I've got it right. Not sure what you are talking about.

OK it's the next day and I had to read our exchange again just to be sure I had it right. I have no idea why you are still confused on my position as I've been very vocal. So let me clarify where you are off:


I never posted that he was playing good enough right now as you have claimed.

I never posted that he was great right now as you have claimed

I have also agreed his injury history is very concerning.

I am not so in love with Griff that I can not handle the criticism. I get defensive at the haters because they have failed to recognize what Griffin does well. The defenders have been very open about what he does well and what he does not do well and where he needs improvement. The other side only posts the negative and fails to even acknowledge the positives Griffin provieds. You call it "in love", I call it frustration at the lack of objective analysis from the haters. I am simply asking for fair analysis from both sides. Unfortunately only one side is capable of being objective.

What I have also said was Griff has shown to be great in the past. He may never be that good again but he has a much better chance of being good in the future than Kirk, Colt, something called Ryan Mallet or anyone we select in the draft given the high bust rate of QBs in the draft. I still can't believe you made me argue Ryan Mallet with you yesterday WTF was that?

I believe fans are panicking by suggesting we bail or bring in competition at the end of the year, particularly when the competition is TJ Yates etc, guys who stink by every matrix available. The fans who are making this suggestion have no doubt criticized the management of the Redskins for their impatience, now they are exhibiting the same behavior. We have Griff for another year and a half. What's the hurry?

I hope that clears this up. Let me know if we still have a misunderstanding.

 

[j_y19]

OK it's the next day and I had to read our exchange again just to be sure I had it right. I have no idea why you are still confused on my position as I've been very vocal. So let me clarify where you are off:


I never posted that he was playing good enough right now as you have claimed.

I never posted that he was great right now as you have claimed

I have also agreed his injury history is very concerning.

I am not so in love with Griff that I can not handle the criticism. I get defensive at the haters because they have failed to recognize what Griffin does well. The defenders have been very open about what he does well and what he does not do well and where he needs improvement. The other side only posts the negative and fails to even acknowledge the positives Griffin provieds. You call it "in love", I call it frustration at the lack of objective analysis from the haters. I am simply asking for fair analysis from both sides. Unfortunately only one side is capable of being objective.

What I have also said was Griff has shown to be great in the past. He may never be that good again but he has a much better chance of being good in the future than Kirk, Colt, something called Ryan Mallet or anyone we select in the draft given the high bust rate of QBs in the draft. I still can't believe you made me argue Ryan Mallet with you yesterday WTF was that?

I believe fans are panicking by suggesting we bail or bring in competition at the end of the year, particularly when the competition is TJ Yates etc, guys who stink by every matrix available. The fans who are making this suggestion have no doubt criticized the management of the Redskins for their impatience, now they are exhibiting the same behavior. We have Griff for another year and a half. What's the hurry?

I hope that clears this up. Let me know if we still have a misunderstanding.

So here is where we differ. First, I believe that it is questionable that Robert will ever achieve the success he had in year 1 again. I say this because what the team is asking him to do is not natural to him and he does not seem to be picking it up. He has now had a full seasons worth of games and he is still making the same mistakes. Second, it is highly probable that his career will be cut shot due to injury. Having said that, I feel the best course is to give him another half season to try and work things out without the threat of benching.

We also differ in what to do at the end of the season if he shows no improvement. I can't figure out why you have an issue with bringing in competition. You focus on two names. I gave a handful. These are all QBs that are experienced pocket passers since their college days. We've already seen how the 2we have (KC and colt) have run the passing offense with more expertise in terms od pocket awareness, decision making, and reading defenses. QBs of this mold better fit a gruden offense. Now I agree that they probably aren't the guys. But that doesn't mean that we have to have a Peyton or Brady. Look at the success gruden had with a dalton. He's by no means a world beater, but given the right scheme, he is more than capable. So who knows. Maybe a Hoyer or a Sanchez or one of the others can better run THIS offense. At a minimum, they might provide a fire under Robert's ass and serve to make him better. What is so outlandish about that?

This whole suggestion is predicated on no improvement by Robert. If he does show signs of improvement, then you by all means stick with him. But if not, at some point you have to look else where.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

So here is where we differ. First, I believe that it is questionable that Robert will ever achieve the success he had in year 1 again. I say this because what the team is asking him to do is not natural to him and he does not seem to be picking it up. He has now had a full seasons worth of games and he is still making the same mistakes. Second, it is highly probable that his career will be cut shot due to injury. Having said that, I feel the best course is to give him another half season to try and work things out without the threat of benching.

We also differ in what to do at the end of the season if he shows no improvement. I can't figure out why you have an issue with bringing in competition. You focus on two names. I gave a handful. These are all QBs that are experienced pocket passers since their college days. We've already seen how the 2we have (KC and colt) have run the passing offense with more expertise in terms od pocket awareness, decision making, and reading defenses. QBs of this mold better fit a gruden offense. Now I agree that they probably aren't the guys. But that doesn't mean that we have to have a Peyton or Brady. Look at the success gruden had with a dalton. He's by no means a world beater, but given the right scheme, he is more than capable. So who knows. Maybe a Hoyer or a Sanchez or one of the others can better run THIS offense. At a minimum, they might provide a fire under Robert's ass and serve to make him better. What is so outlandish about that?

This whole suggestion is predicated on no improvement by Robert. If he does show signs of improvement, then you by all means stick with him. But if not, at some point you have to look else where.

I was just trying to set the record straight on my position and I hope I've done that.

As for Griffin I share your concern As I've posted many times I'm not sure pocket presence is something that can be learned, it may be something you either have or you do not. But again this MAY be something that can be learned with experience. I am preaching patience, something this team has never demonstrated in the past, by seeing what we have in Griffin for all of next year.

As for your list I focused on 2 names but IMO nobody on that list will take us where we want to go. Is there really any difference between TJ Yates and Derek Anderson? There's a reason they would be available, because they all stink and I don't look for that to magically chance once they come to Washington.. So what if they are pocket passers? That does not mean they will be an improvement given their play to date. The NFL is not about serviceable QBs who can maybe get you to 9-10 wins every now and then with everything perfect around them. That's the hard road to take as history has shown us. And getting 10 wins consistently out of Derek Anderson or Matt Flynn is going to be really tough, you better have a damn good team around them. And that is what you are proposing. Me? I want more than that. I want a guy who can be a real difference maker and that guy is not on your list.

Here's a thought: Instead of building a perfect 52 man roster so a stiff like Derek Anderson can have continued success how about improving the front 5, along with depth on the OL, and give Robert Griffin the same opportunity Mark Rypien had. Sounds like a more sensible approach to me.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

I could not add this as I was too late but nobody is confusing anyone on your list with Andy Daulton. They aren't even in the same universe. And as we've seen Daulton is just good enough to get you beat in the first round, even with a solid defense and great skill players. I just don't see how anyone on your list would be better than that. As I said I want more from the QB position. Will it be Griff? Impossible to say right now. But I've been waiting 30 years for a top QB, I can handle another 18 months.

 

[j_y19]

I was just trying to set the record straight on my position and I hope I've done that.

As for Griffin I share your concern As I've posted many times I'm not sure pocket presence is something that can be learned, it may be something you either have or you do not. But again this MAY be something that can be learned with experience. I am preaching patience, something this team has never demonstrated in the past, by seeing what we have in Griffin for all of next year.

As for your list I focused on 2 names but IMO nobody on that list will take us where we want to go. Is there really any difference between TJ Yates and Derek Anderson? There's a reason they would be available, because they all stink and I don't look for that to magically chance once they come to Washington.. So what if they are pocket passers? That does not mean they will be an improvement given their play to date. The NFL is not about serviceable QBs who can maybe get you to 9-10 wins every now and then with everything perfect around them. That's the hard road to take as history has shown us. And getting 10 wins consistently out of Derek Anderson or Matt Flynn is going to be really tough, you better have a damn good team around them. And that is what you are proposing. Me? I want more than that. I want a guy who can be a real difference maker and that guy is not on your list.

Here's a thought: Instead of building a perfect 52 man roster so a stiff like Derek Anderson can have continued success how about improving the front 5, along with depth on the OL, and give Robert Griffin the same opportunity Mark Rypien had. Sounds like a more sensible approach to me.

Is joe flacco a franchise qb? IMO, the absolute necessity of having a franchise qb is over rated. You can win and vie for SBs with a serviceable QB if you have the other pieces in place. Now if you read my earlier posts in entirety, I recognize the OL has to be addressed and suggested how to do that. But Robert's issues aren't really related to a poor OL. Most of his issues stem from a lack of ability to read the defense and his lack of "sense" in feeling pressure. This is evidenced by how many fewer sacks we took when Robert is not in there. Let's be real. Robert's success in college and year 1 came when he was able to freelance. When he gets out in space. That is where he is dangerous. But we don't use him that way, for what ever reason. In season 1, Kyle had him rolling out constantly, with the threat that he would tuck and run. That freezes defenses. Now defenses don't fear that and the key to beating an rg3 led offense is max pressure right in his face, up the middle. He can't seem to identify that presnap and audible to a hot read. And he hasn't in 16 games. This is a consistent problem. This has nothing to do with a poor OL or injury. This has to do with decision making.

 

[Sharkinva]

DGF... I will simply point out that the same "unfair" assessment style you say people use when judging Griffin, is exactly what you do when its any other QB. You harp on and point out any negatives without giving any credit for any positives at all in their play.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

DGF... I will simply point out that the same "unfair" assessment style you say people use when judging Griffin, is exactly what you do when its any other QB. You harp on and point out any negatives without giving any credit for any positives at all in their play.

That is simply not true. I agreeded all along that Kirk is a better pocket passer and clearly gets the ball out quicker.

J: Using Joe Flacco is like using Tom Brady to prove that you can find a HOF QB in the 6th round. And again nobody is confusing Matt Flynn, TJ Yates, or anyone else on your list with Joe Flacco. Flacco is a solid NFL starter, nobody can say that about anyone on your list. Even their mothers.

Do I really need to trot my Super Bowl winning QBs list out again to prove my point? Again out of 49 Super Bowls there are only 6-7 that were won by average QBs, and every one of them with the exception of Eli was one and done and not one of them even went back. The other 41 winners, the teams that had multiple appearances, and the teams that compete year after year have top QBs or play for top organizations such as Baltimore. Do you really believe that this will ever be a top organization good enough to surround those QBs with enough talent to do what Baltimore does? Good luck with that. And again Flynn ain't no Flacco.

Now will Griff be that guy? Hard to say, my lean is he will be good but never great. But Derek Anderson will never be that guy in Washington, I just don't see how anyone can count on that happening.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

INow defenses don't fear that and the key to beating an rg3 led offense is max pressure right in his face, up the middle. He can't seem to identify that presnap and audible to a hot read. And he hasn't in 16 games. This is a consistent problem. This has nothing to do with a poor OL or injury. This has to do with decision making.

Did you miss the thread Dad started breaking down Griff's improvement in reading defenses? It showed clear improvement. There's still work to be done but again he is not a finished product. People said he couldn't slide. People said he never took any blame. Things are changing. Will it change enough? No way to know today or even by December. But you continue to act like it's a done deal and I just see it differently

 

[SoCalWizFan]

And your basing your professional opinion on Mallet based on what?

Leaving RG3 to the side - why in the world would anyone believe that Mallet will be anything more than a journeyman in the NFL? Maybe he will surprise me, but I will be 100% shocked if this guy is anything more than a career backup. If not then I am shocked that he cannot displace a career scrub like Fitzpatrick (who would give Cousins a run in the INT dept).

 

[j_y19]

Did you miss the thread Dad started breaking down Griff's improvement in reading defenses? It showed clear improvement. There's still work to be done but again he is not a finished product. People said he couldn't slide. People said he never took any blame. Things are changing. Will it change enough? No way to know today or even by December. But you continue to act like it's a done deal and I just see it differently

Dude, just because dad writes it doesn't make it fact. I love dad and respect the hell out of him, but that is his opinion. I don't agree with it. Griffin is still consistently making the same errors in reading defenses and in decision making. His int last game is a perfect example. Not only was the throw bad, but the decision was bad. He had a 1st down if he would have just continued sprinting to the sideline when he broke from the pocket. I have seen no improvement in this area from the Philly game opening day 2013 until last Sunday. He still locks onto his first read (when in the pocket), he struggles with identifying blitzes and what to, and he struggles to keep his eyes downfield while moving in the pocket. He is usually back pedaling when he feels pressure.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

DGF... I will simply point out that the same "unfair" assessment style you say people use when judging Griffin, is exactly what you do when its any other QB. You harp on and point out any negatives without giving any credit for any positives at all in their play.

I don't have time to find them all but 5 minutes got me here:

Again I totally get that 2 of the sacks against Houston were on Griffin. No doubt Cousins gets rid of the ball quicker and appears to be a more polished QB in the pocket.

http://www.sportshoopla.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5612208

I am not about to knock Kirk after that performance. And yes his ability to get ride of the ball quickly was a big factor..

http://www.sportshoopla.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5591782

But Sunday Kirk threw a perfect pass on the right sideline on 3rd down, just a fantastic play by the defender. That pass is completed and maybe we have a different final drive. Too early to judge Cousins in crunch time.

http://www.sportshoopla.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5591795