Trade deadline lead-up

[Etrius24]

Greinke was not a product of the current GM!!! He was inherited... The focus on pitching and pitching depth in the minors had nothing to do with Greinke... He was one of those kids that blossomed.. from the time they drafted him to the time he made the majors he was throwing 7 or 8 miles per hour.... Harder... Which is what we all want when we look at a soft tossing 18 year old... But it does not happen very often.

But it is Ironic that the best pitcher in Recent Royals memory came from the worst GM they ever had... He was not littlefield bad... but close.

 

[Etrius24]

And the Mcdonald comment was to give an example of how you pick up pitchers every year and some pan out... The Expos traded for Pedro Martinez... Sending a good pitching prospect away is not the end of the world for the Pirates even if that said pitcher pans out and has a good career...Because the Pirates are trading for and signing more pitchers all the time... in addition to the ones they draft...Every couple of years or so they sift through the sand and find productive starters....It is not the same as developing a front of the rotation starter exactly... but We have seen the past couple of seasons that you can get good starting pitching from unconventional sources.

McDonald, Bedard, Burnett, Correia... Non of them were drafted and developed by the Bucs...Morton came over in a trade... I like the prospects down on the farm also.. but I would not let my dreaming about what if someday get in the way of making a deal to get this team into the post season.

 

[Etrius24]

If you looked at the WAR.... for the three players I mentioned... It might only add up to 3 wins.. but in this division this year.. three wins might decide who gets to the post season and who goes home.

And let's be honest... look additionally at the players these guys would be replacing.. you mean to tell me that Tabata has a positive WAR...I just looked it up... it is in the negative..-.3...

As much as I like WAR... I look at Tabata who has a negative WAR.. and think that according to this stat it should be easy to just go to the waiver wire and get a player that is an upgrade... Not always so easily done... There are Brian Daubach types lurking in the minors.. But there is a lot of AAAA players also.

 

[thecrow124]

Etrius it is no longer worth my time to dispute this with you, since any time any of your comments are put into question, you attept to spin your words to make it sound differently than your initial post. I never once said that any of the players mentioned could not help the team other than Street, who is an injury waiting to happen, just like Bedard, whom we are on borrowed time with currently, but that the amount you recommend sending in the deal is not fair trade value for us.

This will be my last post on this subject with you, so if you feel the need to respond feel free, but I will not be responding back.

 

[Etrius24]

Crow

No hard feelings here man... We can agree to disagree on what the Bucs should do and whether or not they can afford to trade one of their better prospects... That is fine...

The debate did veer off into other areas as we continued to reply to one another.. Like when you mentioned Greinke and the Royals... I responded... and we had a little bit of a tangent... And we did venture off again talking about McDonald...

And you are right street has been injury prone in the past... I think everyone knows that...I would not expect to get anything long term out of street... But if he could find a way to get through this season and help get the bucs to the post season that would be good enough for me.

Cheers.

 

[Etrius24]

A couple days after the Youk trade Carlos Lee was given the option to go to a contending team...He has a limited trade clause... and then 2 days later Thome has been traded to the Orioles for 2 prospects.

There is a trade market.... There are teams with players to trade and there are teams looking to add pieces.

Thome is no longer a everyday player, but he has the ability to platoon and pinch hit...He can still put the baseball into the seats... I am NOT upset that the bucs did not get Thome.. But he is an example of a player going to a contending team, or better yet a team that wants to be a contending team ( orioles ) And I think he could hit 10 homeruns from here on out for them...In a limited role..

Lee is 36 and in decline... but he is a free agent so there is no long term commitment... I do not think they have to go get Lee either... but he is a bat that could help a team in the right situation...

Clearly posters here want a younger player... who is not expensive... who can help this club for 2-3 years... Those players are going to be expensive...

I guess if I have more time this afternoon I will look and make a list of possible players that might become available...

cheers

 

[Darkstone42]

Here's a slideshow from MLB trade rumors on needs. They seem to think it would be wise for the Pirates to target Scutaro or Lowrie.

I would love to add Lowrie.

Rosenthal, per Twitter, thinks they should go after Hamels or Greinke.

 

[sychmd]

i would say greinke and lowrie would be great.
both are the right age to fit our window.
lowrie would be really cheap dollar wise.

grienke would be cheaper than hamels, but hamels is that lefty.

hamels is injury free but will cost a lot. also in his walk year and they are talking 20M+ here in philly. He has the WS MVP i believe as well.

dont know much about scutaro, but lowrie seems to be a great 7, 8 hitter, and can even be a 6 depending on how much more ceiling he has given he has never played a whole year.

 

[Darkstone42]

i would say greinke and lowrie would be great.
both are the right age to fit our window.
lowrie would be really cheap dollar wise.

grienke would be cheaper than hamels, but hamels is that lefty.

hamels is injury free but will cost a lot. also in his walk year and they are talking 20M+ here in philly. He has the WS MVP i believe as well.

dont know much about scutaro, but lowrie seems to be a great 7, 8 hitter, and can even be a 6 depending on how much more ceiling he has given he has never played a whole year.

The nice thing about Lowrie is he'd be under team control until 2015. I would also prefer Greinke to Hamels because Greinke would be more likely to sign an extension with us in a small market. Hamels would almost certainly walk.

 

[thecrow124]

The price for Greinke is going to be high, talk in Milwaukee is they want major league players, and high upside prospects. Not sure exactly what teams would be willing to give up for a couple months of his services, but I would expect that baseball is going to start being like the NBA where teams will be allowed to talk to players to see if they would be willing to sign an extention with the acquiring team if there is a trade. I would be willing to trade any of our top prospects for a couple years of Greinke, but not a couple months.
I also find it hard to believe that we target a SS with Barmes under control for next year at $5 million, unless he is shipped out as part of the deal. Then again, an upgrade is an upgrade regardless.

 

[sychmd]

is greinke in his walk year also.

hamels is a So Cal kid and talk is him going back there via trade or testing the FA market.

can mckenry really be a long term option at catcher. If not, i would rather invest in a C as borajas is getting old, coming on the last month, but getting old and not sure what he can give us next year.

i am all in favor of D first at catcher, but he has to give us something with the bat.
i can live with barmes if we get a real catcher.

 

[Etrius24]

Lowrie is having a solid season.. He is young and affordbale... He is not going to come cheap....He plays a premium position and he is hitting like an all star.... I am afraid that many here might be upset at what it might take to get him...

 

[magnumo]

Almost a month ago, there was a fairly strenuous disagreement in this thread about whether there was a "trade market" at that time.

(Note: It goes without saying that most Pirate fans would define "trade market" as one involving players which would/should be of interest to the Pirates.)

The experts were speculating and the pundits were reporting that there wasn't much of a trade market at that time. With the extra wildcard in play, potential sellers were delaying decisions on selling. Huntington and Hurdle were quoted repeatedly to the effect that, although the Pirates had been exploring possible trades for several weeks..... there just wasn't interest on the part of potential trade partners, even to discuss possible trades..... i.e., there wasn't much of a trade market.

Now, several weeks later, we find ourselves just 12 days from the deadline..... and now we're hearing reports of relevant trade discussions, not only involving the Pirates but other teams, as well. Seems like the timing of the trade market is developing EXACTLY as predicted by the experts:

- There was no trade market a month ago.

- There IS a trade market now.

 

[Darkstone42]

Unfortunately, mags, I suspect it will be a seller's market. Hopefully, the Pirates can pull off a quality deal nonetheless.

 

[magnumo]

Unfortunately, mags, I suspect it will be a seller's market. Hopefully, the Pirates can pull off a quality deal nonetheless.

I agree, Darkstone..... Fewer sellers + more buyers = a seller's market.

I agree with your hope, as well. I would define "quality deal" as one which results in a short-term upgrade AND adds longer-term value.

 

[element1286]

Stephen Drew is the new rumor du jour.

 

[thecrow124]

Two years ago I might have made a trade for Stephen Drew, but now I am not sure I would give up a used jock strap for him. He might be a slight offensive upgrade, but not enough to where I would give up a prospect for him.

As for the trade market, I can't really decied what I would like to see happen. On one hand, I would like to see us trade for Justin Upton, but I just don't think his addition would be enough to make us a true contender in the post season, but we would control him for a few more years after this year, giving us a window. However, if we were to acquire him, I am not sure we would be abloe to control Pedro past his first year of arbitration.

To that end, we would also likely need to add a starting pitcher, and possibly 2 to have a serious shot in the post season. I could see us being able to get a couple upgrades, but in doing so, I just think we would depelte the top of our minor league system, just to have a shot this year. I can not bring my mind around that, I just don't think going for broke this year is probably not our best option.

So, if we are to make a move, I would be ok with giving up prospects to bring in Justin Upto and see where that could take us, but I would not give up anything for rentals. I think the Votto and Braun injuries can help us to where if we can open up a couple games on Cincy and put a few more games between us and Milwaukee, then they become sellers and aren't of issue any more. St. Louis seems to be doing exactly as I predicted and falling off the face of the pennant race. The young/lack of pitching, is finally catching up to them.

I guess what I am saying is, if we can't get an impact player with years of affordable control, then I am all for just sanding pat. I would hate to see us give up prospects for rentals or minor upgrades.

 

[sychmd]

i agree with 2012 is exciting and fun, but give up no prospects that have real potential to help us in 2013-2017. even ones that could be reasonable trade chips.

this is not our year. we are playing great and there is good chemistry, but too many holes to run the board. enjoy it, and bring up prospects now to see what we really have for the next couple years. dont wait till next spring training as that is a waste.

we know we have holes but do we have internal options. we dont know until we try them. owens, locke, marte, wilson, vanderhuk, wood, reyes, etc.
i am not saying i have a strategy, but we cant look at this year as the be all end all. we still are in the growth and data gathering stages.

once we get some reasonable data, we have a better understanding of what internal options will work, what our depth to trade is, and what we need to get from the outside.

i believe we need to trade for a SS and possibly a C (altho barajas and mcK have surprised with stellar output THIS yr). maybe the flip roles and playing tiime next year.

we have no cathers on the farm. doesnt seem like we have a SS down there either.
Darnaud can steal bases, but cant steal first. mercer, have no idea what he can do.

a corner stud OF would be next. i would rather go FA so we dont have to give good prospects. we have to pay them either way, but can keep prospects. unless we can find someone looking to replenish their minors with quantity of B list prospects for one SS, C, OF, SP.

we have a team and a farm that can compete for 4-7 years and get better each year, we just cant sell off vital pieces for a cheap thrill. we also cant waste top picks like allie. we have to convert first and second draft picks into average players or better 95% for a small market to be successful.

 

[Etrius24]

The longer this goes on and the pirates are in contention the harder it is going to be for them NOT to make a deal... It is hard to add quality to win now and in the future... Especially if you do not want to give up a elite prospect from your system.

Best maybe they can hope for is a decent short term bat for the offense... someone that will not require a top prospect from the bucs... And while people here might be pissed it is only a short term deal...as long as they get a shot to make the post season, and they do not have to surrender a top prospect... How can that not be a win-win?

 

[steelparrot]

Examining the potential trade market for starting pitchers - ESPN

If there's a hitter who might have even a remote shot of getting traded, the Pirates have asked about him. One surprising name they took a run at: Kansas City's favorite All-Star folk hero, Billy Butler. But the Pirates are still in a buy-low frame of mind. And the Royals have told a few clubs that inquired that they'd have to be blown away to deal their All-Star.


I hope we stay in 'buy low' mode, I dont wanna trade our top prospects, our core is to young for us to do that imho.

We can upgrade this team significantly by adding a rental corner outfielder and upgrading the bench.