Trade deadline lead-up

[thecrow124]

I am just wondering what everyone thinks we should do leading up to the deadline. I am having a very difficult time figuring out what NH actually is thinking at this point. I can understand the desire to go out and acquire a bat, but over the last 3 weeks(small sample size alert) we have actually been playing pretty well offensively, not good, but good enough to win with decent pitching. Unfortunately, with the exception of McDonald and Burnett and the bullpen, our starting pitching over that span has been less than stellar.
I would think that during this time we would at least take a look and see what we have at AAA, basically because we are running out of time to get all the options that are there a fair chance in the rotation. Personally I would like to see each of them getting 3-5 starts and evaluate from there. However, with Karstens seemingly on his way back, and Bedard not going anywhere, that leaves only Correia's spot in the rotation, and NH seems to love that guy for some reason, I am not sure he could start for any other organization right now.
I think at minimum 3 of the 5 in Indy need to be given an opportunity at the major league level. Locke, Owens and Wilson, and even Reyes and VanDenHurk have been pitching well enough to be given some consideration, but not to the level of the other 3.
As for the trade market, currently, as it sits, there is only 1 bat I would realistically be looking to acquire and that is Chase Headley, second would be in a package where we could also acquire a pitcher, and that would be Alfonso Soriano, but we would also need Dempster or Garza in that deal. I would not be opposed to giving up minor league depth to get those 2, but I would not give up a lot of value. I would be more inclined to eat most of Soriano's contract than give up prospects.
There is actually a better pitching market currently, than there is a hitters market, and we could actually put better hitters on the market, without hurting us to much at the major league level. Garrett Jones would probably be the 3rd best hitter on the market right now.
I say all of that to get to this point, we are in contention because of our pitching, and our hitting is coming around finally. With more pitching currently available than hitting why not put some of our position players on the market and look to add pitching, which is more abundant. Either that or start seeing what we have at AAA and add even more pitching to an already flooded market. Not an all out sell, but eventually we have to bring up prospects, so it would be better to start sonner than later.

 

[magnumo]

I'm in general agreement with your thoughts, with the following additions and qualifications:

- Dempster just went on the DL, so he's probably not a good target.

- Last year, I thought NH made a mistake when he chose to add hitters (Ludwick and Lee) rather than pitchers. This year, even with Morton out, I think we have enough pitching depth (and a need to see whether any of those guys at AAA are worthy of starting in the majors)..... that he should pursue hitters rather than pitchers.

- I wouldn't object to trading literally anyone on the team to improve the team. In the (somewhat distant) past the Bucs have traded good and popular players with excellent results. One of my favorites was the Bucs trading Frank Thomas (easily thier best player at the time) to Cincinnati for Smokey Burgess, Harvey Haddix, and Don Hoak. That trade was generally credited as a BIG part of setting up the World Series championship team of 1960. I'm also reminded of the trade of Tony Pena to the Cards for Van Slyke, LaValliere, and Mike Dunne.

- It has been reported widely that the hope provided by the extra wild card slot is causing many teams to delay "selling." Based upon what we're seeing (and hearing from Huntington & Hurdle), the market is apparently next to dead right now. I gotta feeling that very little trade action will happen until the deadline..... and we'll be left to hope that our existing offense is good enough. Unfortunately, despite the recent improvement, the Bucs' offense remains dead last in MLB in runs and OBP, 29th out of 30 teams in batting average, and 28th out of 30 teams in slugging.

- I remain skeptical that the current team is truly competitive, based on our run differential and cumulative WAR numbers. Hence, I believe anything the Pirates do should have a long-term focus. In other words, I don't want to see them trade away prospects for short-term or stop-gap solutions.

 

[Illinest]

I would go after headley since hes entering his prime years and has two years of control after this one. He could help us now and also help us later.
I would trade hanrahan. Im telling you now - hes gonna get too much in arbitration. I would use some combination of lincoln, wilson, and morris to fill out the bullpen.

 

[Burgh Sports Rule]

I'm in general agreement with your thoughts, with the following additions and qualifications:

- Dempster just went on the DL, so he's probably not a good target.

- Last year, I thought NH made a mistake when he chose to add hitters (Ludwick and Lee) rather than pitchers. This year, even with Morton out, I think we have enough pitching depth (and a need to see whether any of those guys at AAA are worthy of starting in the majors)..... that he should pursue hitters rather than pitchers.

- I wouldn't object to trading literally anyone on the team to improve the team. In the (somewhat distant) past the Bucs have traded good and popular players with excellent results. One of my favorites was the Bucs trading Frank Thomas (easily thier best player at the time) to Cincinnati for Smokey Burgess, Harvey Haddix, and Don Hoak. That trade was generally credited as a BIG part of setting up the World Series championship team of 1960. I'm also reminded of the trade of Tony Pena to the Cards for Van Slyke, LaValliere, and Mike Dunne.

- It has been reported widely that the hope provided by the extra wild card slot is causing many teams to delay "selling." Based upon what we're seeing (and hearing from Huntington & Hurdle), the market is apparently next to dead right now. I gotta feeling that very little trade action will happen until the deadline..... and we'll be left to hope that our existing offense is good enough. Unfortunately, despite the recent improvement, the Bucs' offense remains dead last in MLB in runs and OBP, 29th out of 30 teams in batting average, and 28th out of 30 teams in slugging.

- I remain skeptical that the current team is truly competitive, based on our run differential and cumulative WAR numbers. Hence, I believe anything the Pirates do should have a long-term focus. In other words, I don't want to see them trade away prospects for short-term or stop-gap solutions.

Whatever we do on the trade market? Personally, for myself, I would like to see us start to make moves that will not only help this yr, but, make a move or two to add pieces to help the team long term.

In short, I would like to see us make moves to improve the MLB club, yes.

However, make a trade or two, that will add players to the long term core of this team.

Be it Hitting or Pitching.

No More Stop Gap Rentals.

Burgh


PS I am for moving Hanrahan in the right deal as well.

 

[element1286]

I'm ok trading or anyone really, as long as the price is right. I see it most likely they go after a rental (or two) like last year, and give up very little in the process.

 

[sychmd]

any trade we make needs to bring value for the future.
the only exception would be if we are giving up a PTBNL/A or lower, limited ceiling player.
we need to audition our AAA pitchers to see what we have there and trade off cruz and resop and correia.
the quicker we can get an answer for a future hole, the sooner we know who else is available in a package.
meaning, if we get headly, then we move pedro to first and can easily package one or two of tabata, jones, or presley (assuming marte and cutch are in the OF in 2013).
that allows us to really go and get a C that can really play and hit. i dont mind barajas who has done well since may 1 or so, but is a bit old to really see as a future piece.
people to trade in a package for headley(if he is the best bat to go for) and a C are:
jones, hague, mcK, cruz, resop, correia, grossman, latimore, curry, dickerson, lambo, sanchez, darnaud, barmes, and the worst 2 or 3 of (owens, locke, wilson, vanderhuk, reyes) after auditions and scouting evals, and any A+ and lower bat other than bell and our new draftees.

lineup:
C - New stud with barajas as mentor and backup
1B - Alvarez with mcgehee as backup
2B - walker with navarro as backup
3B - headley with alvarez and mcgehee as backup
SS - Mercer, Harrison, Navarro vying for starters and multipurpose people

 

[sychmd]

sorry, somehow prematurely submitted

LF - Cutch, tabata, presly, navarro
CF - Marte, cutch,
RF - Tabata, Presly, navarro, harrison

bench: barajas, mcgehee, navarro, harrison, presley

SP
1. McD
2. Burnett
3. Karstens
4/5. Bedard, Cole, Owens, Locke, Wilson, Leroux

RP
1. Hanny
2. Grilli
3. Hughes
4. Lincoln
5. Slaten
6. Watson
7. Leroux/Morris/Alderson

then whatever is leftover after our headley and C trade gets put toward SS with a ++ glove with whatever average or above bat we can afford or get, wouldnt even mind paying in FA for the C or SS if the right age, head, and tools are available. dont overspend for name or someone too old and on the downside.

 

[element1286]

Just thought of this, but Marco Scuaro could an option at the deadline. Rockies seem like clear sellers and he could start, or come off the bench, depending how Barmes is playing at that point.

 

[Etrius24]

I would think there might be some value in making a trade now as opposed to waiting to the day of the deadline... whoever we get can help us win more games now as opposed to waiting until september.... I think the day of the deadline deals are for teams that mostly would make it anyways... Because when you get a starter at the deadline what can they make 5 starts for you down the stretch.

Not saying the Bucs need a starter... but if they were going to get Scutaro... I would lik to think the asking price will not differ enough to matter now from the trade deadline... So you might as well pull the trigger now...

Ditto for Lahair or Soriano or Headley or Quentin... all of these guys have a basic value... and everyone knows roughly what that value is... It is not going to change that much between now and the deadline...

I personally think that going and getting a couple of bats now would send a message that the Management believes this team can win... NOW... and they can make it to the post season.... That boost of confidence would almost mean as much as the players that they bring in to help the struggling offense.

 

[magnumo]

Etrius Alert

Can't understand why you post such obvious nonsense.....

I would think there might be some value in making a trade now as opposed to waiting to the day of the deadline... whoever we get can help us win more games now as opposed to waiting until september.... I think the day of the deadline deals are for teams that mostly would make it anyways... Because when you get a starter at the deadline what can they make 5 starts for you down the stretch.

<snip>

The facts: The trading deadline is July 31 at 4pm. The Pirates have 59 games remaining after that date..... which means that a starting pitcher acquired at the deadline would most likely have the opportunity to make TWELVE (12) starts by the end of the season.

As far as making trades NOW is concerned:

- Huntington has been quoted widely in the media to the effect that there is NO trade market now.

- It takes two teams to make a trade. With the additional wild card spot, most teams are not willing to sell this early, either because they have wild card aspirations, or because they want to keep their fans interested. This also has been widely reported.

 

[Etrius24]

<b> Mags alert</b>

As soon as there IS a trade... your premise will be false because there will be a market for the player traded. It has to start sooner or later... The teams that are going to sell... Mostly know now they are going to sell... The extra wildcard is not clouding the judgement of the Twins, Padres or Cubs...

And since when did everything a team or a GM said regarding potential trades ever amount to be true. 99% of the time teams do not like to tip their hand...So when asked about a trade they usually deny it... teams say players are not being shopped...and then a few days later they are traded away...

THIS HAPPENS EVERY FUCKING YEAR MAGS

 

[Darkstone42]

Now would be a good time to start kicking the tires on some potential deals, because obviously the longer we have whatever upgrade we can acquire, the more positive impact that player can have for us.

But if no one's even talking yet, what is there to do?

 

[magnumo]

Etrius Alert

<b> Mags alert</b>

As soon as there IS a trade... your premise will be false because there will be a market for the player traded. It has to start sooner or later... The teams that are going to sell... Mostly know now they are going to sell... The extra wildcard is not clouding the judgement of the Twins, Padres or Cubs...

And since when did everything a team or a GM said regarding potential trades ever amount to be true. 99% of the time teams do not like to tip their hand...So when asked about a trade they usually deny it... teams say players are not being shopped...and then a few days later they are traded away...

THIS HAPPENS EVERY FUCKING YEAR MAGS

I notice that you said nothing in your reply about the primary point in my post..... that a starting pitcher acquired at the deadline would likely make 12 starts before season's end, rather than 5. Hence, I'm assuming that you now recognize THAT mistake.

As far as the remainder of my post is concerned:

- I did NOT state a premise. Instead, I posted two items which have been widely reported, which perhaps you had missed. (My experience has been that you like to post a whole lot more than you like to read.)

- Of course trades will be made "sooner or later." Could anything be more obvious?

- But in case you didn't get the memo, there is an extra wild-card slot in each league this year..... and that is making THIS YEAR different, according to all published reports I have read.

- All the experts expect a vast majority of the trading action to take place LATER (closer to the deadline), rather than SOONER. I choose to believe that logical conclusion.

 

[magnumo]

Now would be a good time to start kicking the tires on some potential deals, because obviously the longer we have whatever upgrade we can acquire, the more positive impact that player can have for us.

But if no one's even talking yet, what is there to do?

In fact, Huntington has been quoted in the local media to the effect that he has been exploring possible trades for several weeks..... but that he hasn't found any interest from other teams in even talking about trades yet.

That does indeed suggest that there is no current activity. It would be just as easy for him to say something like "we're working on some things, but we won't talk about specifics"..... as he has many times in the past.

As you said, "What is there to do?" (other than keep open the lines of communications with other GM's)..... which he is no doubt doing.

 

[thecrow124]

Just to give everyone an idea of where the trade market is right now, I read a report that said Baltimore has been trying to make trades as well. Every team they have talked with has STARTED the negotiation with 2 words, Bundy and Machado, and have not come down from there. So if we want to upgrade now, for a player like Chase Headley, they first words out of the SD GM's mouth are probably, Cole AND Taillon.

I would NOT be in ay hurry to make a trade at that expense, heck I wouldn't even give up one of those two for 2 years and 100 games of Josh Willingham, at a very team friendly deal, let alone both for Headley.

 

[Illinest]

Im pretty certain that bundy isnt allowed to be traded since hes still in his first year with the club, which suggests that the report is more fabrication than truth.

 

[element1286]

Im pretty certain that bundy isnt allowed to be traded since hes still in his first year with the club, which suggests that the report is more fabrication than truth.

He could be a PTBNL.

 

[thecrow124]

He could be a PTBNL.

Exactly, that is how Colorado ended up with Drew Pomeranz.


http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/06/quick-hits-drew-bundy-machado-blue-jays.html

 

[Illinest]

I stand corrected then.

 

[magnumo]

Here's a link (although several days old) to Biertempfel's blog in the Trib, where he addresses the Pirates' efforts in the trade market. This blurb has a similar theme to several other pieces I've read:

Let’s (try to) make a deal - Bucco Blog

There was another article (can't remember where) which indicated that MLB was considering moving the trade deadline (presumably, to a later date in coming years) to acknowledge the "wait-and-see" attitude being adopted by more teams (because of the extra wild card slot).

It's hard to tell what kind of impact that might have. With the deadline on July 31, teams still have about a 3rd of the season to gain the benefit of the potential boost provided by "buying"..... and "selling" teams have the potential benefit of shedding two-months-plus worth of salary. Seems that "buying" teams might be willing to give up less later in the season, since they would be gaining less potential benefit..... and thus a later deadline might further reduce trade opportunities. I'd be inclined to leave the trading deadline exactly where it is.