Game Thread: Philadelphia Flyers at Chicago Blackhawks 12/11/13 | 8:00pm

[awaz]

i'm glad the olympics are this year.. time to start scouting what team usa will look like

 

[raptorlife4]

We are going to have to be patient with this team. The way I look at it is that we won't be serious cup contenders until we get our #1 defensemen. And at this point you better pray to God that one of Ghost, Morin, or Hagg becomes that guy. We have a very talented goalie in Stolarz in our system, two very good shutdown centers, and an elite center that is currently underperforming. Load up on ELCs, find Giroux his sniper (Virtanen or Kapanen are two guys I like in this draft) and let this team mesh.

carter would have been a hell of a sniper on his wing

 

[Cobiemonster]

We are going to have to be patient with this team. The way I look at it is that we won't be serious cup contenders until we get our #1 defensemen. And at this point you better pray to God that one of Ghost, Morin, or Hagg becomes that guy. We have a very talented goalie in Stolarz in our system, two very good shutdown centers, and an elite center that is currently underperforming. Load up on ELCs, find Giroux his sniper (Virtanen or Kapanen are two guys I like in this draft) and let this team mesh.

If you have to pray that one of those guys pans out, I wouldn't like the position this franchise is in at this point

Those guys have to be good, you have to know they're good, you can't sit there and say "I hope these guys will be good", that doesn't bode well for the franchise when you have doubts that they may/may not be what you're hoping for

 

[flyersfan4706]

That very young core isn't going to be young much longer and if they don't develop like they aren't right now, it won't mean anything - these guys have been in the league for 3-4-5 years now and they're still not developing the way they should - it's time for some of these guys to put up or shut up - a lot of other young players around the league are developing but the Flyers are very inconsistent when it comes to some of these young guys - too much inconsistency from them

Well of course the young guys are underperforming on this team, no one is. We know that Voracek and Simmonds can be very effective players, Couturier has been a stud, and Brayden Schenn is developing at a slower pace. We can't afford to give up on Brayden, especially after watching what has happened to JVR.

 

[Cobiemonster]

Paul Holmgren has Ruben Amaro Jr. disease - zero creativity with this team, he puts too many eggs in one basket with this team, that's why they're in the spot they're in - banking on guys to step up that people know they can't

 

[flyersfan4706]

carter would have been a hell of a sniper on his wing

And by the time we'd be competing Carter would be in his mid thirties

 

[awaz]

Paul Holmgren has Ruben Amaro Jr. disease - zero creativity with this team, he puts too many eggs in one basket with this team, that's why they're in the spot they're in - banking on guys to step up that people know they can't

i think the flyers have very few guys in that category actually.. the problem is getting them to step up consistently.

 

[awaz]

And by the time we'd be competing Carter would be in his mid thirties

not to mention regardless of how hard we tried and how good we thought he'd be there, he ALWAYS sucked on the wing while he was on the flyers. always.

 

[flyersfan4706]

If you have to pray that one of those guys pans out, I wouldn't like the position this franchise is in at this point

Those guys have to be good, you have to know they're good, you can't sit there and say "I hope these guys will be good", that doesn't bode well for the franchise when you have doubts that they may/may not be what you're hoping for

Where do you think the Penguins would be without Letang? How about Chicago without Keith and Seabrook? Unless you're tanking in the correct year to get one of those defensemen (2003, 2008, 2013) or lucking out in free ageny (Chara, Suter) then praying is all you can do. That's how #1 defensemen are found

 

[Cobiemonster]

i think the flyers have very few guys in that category actually.. the problem is getting them to step up consistently.

Either they step up or they don't, all this banking on guys stepping up if the coaches get them to do so consistently, it has to come from the players theirselves, if they can't do it theirselves then they're not going to be good enough for them to do what they need to do - plain and simple black and white - people complicate this stuff - either you're good enough or you're not

 

[Cobiemonster]

Where do you think the Penguins would be without Letang? How about Chicago without Keith and Seabrook? Unless you're tanking in the correct year to get one of those defensemen (2003, 2008, 2013) or lucking out in free ageny (Chara, Suter) then praying is all you can do. That's how #1 defensemen are found

Letang, although would be a huge upgrade on the Flyers, has been a culprit of their failures in the playoffs because he's gotten burnt more times than not

In Chicago, it's all Jonathan Toews and Patrick Kane, without them, they don't win, people talk about those guys more than Keith and Seabrook, because it's about those guys - the Blackhawks didn't get better until after they got Toews and Kane - Keith and Seabrook were there for at least a few seasons before they got Kane/Toews so that tells me without Toews and Kane they weren't going to win

And lucking out in free agency isn't really luck - if you really want to sign a player, you do it

You can't pray - you need to be aggressive yet smart - you don't see the great teams praying that guys will step up - that's how they get fired - teams who are aggressive and smart KNOW these guys will step up and don't need to pray that these guys will play well - if you get the right scouts and the right coaches around these guys you don't need to worry whether they'll be good enough - that's the problem with the Flyers, they don't develop guys well enough and that's their issue - if you had coaches down in the minors/juniors who developed well, you wouldn't need to pray that they'd be good - you're banking on these guys getting it on their own? That's not a good sign for this organization

This is why Ron Hextall needs to take over, a young, aggressive and smart GM doesn't sit on his hands and hopes/prays that guys will work out, he knows what he wants and the coaches put those guys in the right positions to succeed

 

[awaz]

Either they step up or they don't, all this banking on guys stepping up if the coaches get them to do so consistently, it has to come from the players theirselves, if they can't do it theirselves then they're not going to be good enough for them to do what they need to do - plain and simple black and white - people complicate this stuff - either you're good enough or you're not

in the world of contracts, draft picks, and salary caps you have to hope guys will step up. you cant just change them out with new parts any time you want. you get players you think, hope, and believe can be difference makers at the NHL level and then it's up to them to deliver. if they dont, they dont, but you cant decide on thursday that the guy you thought could be good on tuesday, isnt, so replace him with someone new. guys take time to develop. crosby didnt. malkin didnt. ovechkin didnt. kane didnt. you know what they all have in common? they were the 1st or 2nd draft pick. unfortunately when the flyers sucked dick they got screwed in the lottery in a shitty draft year anyway.

zdeno chara was an awkward tall dude until he was 30+.. tim thomas bounced around hockey leagues until he was 33.. hell datsyuk and zetterberg were afterthoughts until they were on the other side of 25.. the crosbys and ovechkins are the exceptions, not the rules. players take time to develop.

 

[awaz]

Letang, although would be a huge upgrade on the Flyers, has been a culprit of their failures in the playoffs because he's gotten burnt more times than not

In Chicago, it's all Jonathan Toews and Patrick Kane, without them, they don't win, people talk about those guys more than Keith and Seabrook, because it's about those guys - the Blackhawks didn't get better until after they got Toews and Kane - Keith and Seabrook were there for at least a few seasons before they got Kane/Toews so that tells me without Toews and Kane they weren't going to win

And lucking out in free agency isn't really luck - if you really want to sign a player, you do it

You can't pray - you need to be aggressive yet smart - you don't see the great teams praying that guys will step up - that's how they get fired - teams who are aggressive and smart KNOW these guys will step up and don't need to pray that these guys will play well - if you get the right scouts and the right coaches around these guys you don't need to worry whether they'll be good enough - that's the problem with the Flyers, they don't develop guys well enough and that's their issue - if you had coaches down in the minors/juniors who developed well, you wouldn't need to pray that they'd be good - you're banking on these guys getting it on their own? That's not a good sign for this organization

This is why Ron Hextall needs to take over, a young, aggressive and smart GM doesn't sit on his hands and hopes/prays that guys will work out, he knows what he wants and the coaches put those guys in the right positions to succeed

or they had to develop.

wrong. the flyers offered more money to parise AND suter, and didnt get either of them.

and the rest is the same as above. teams do pray guys pan out. all the time. it's what you do with your draft picks. you can have the best scouts in the world but you still have to hope your coaches, their minor league coaches, and the players themselves, have what it takes to DEVELOP in to bonafide nhl difference makers. 18 year olds, regardless of how talented, skilled, and athletic they are, very rarely dominate the NHL. connor mcdavid probably will. but he's a once every 5 year kind of player.

 

[Cobiemonster]

in the world of contracts, draft picks, and salary caps you have to hope guys will step up. you cant just change them out with new parts any time you want. you get players you think, hope, and believe can be difference makers at the NHL level and then it's up to them to deliver. if they dont, they dont, but you cant decide on thursday that the guy you thought could be good on tuesday, isnt, so replace him with someone new. guys take time to develop. crosby didnt. malkin didnt. ovechkin didnt. kane didnt. you know what they all have in common? they were the 1st or 2nd draft pick. unfortunately when the flyers sucked dick they got screwed in the lottery in a shitty draft year anyway.

zdeno chara was an awkward tall dude until he was 30+.. tim thomas bounced around hockey leagues until he was 33.. hell datsyuk and zetterberg were afterthoughts until they were on the other side of 25.. the crosbys and ovechkins are the exceptions, not the rules. players take time to develop.

How is that a matter of hoping? If you have good draft picks and a good salary cap, chances are you're going to be a good team - how many teams that have top picks, good contracts and not up on the salary cap all the time end up being bad? Why do you think more teams use that strategy now? Because they know that it will end up working out

Guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg were going to always be good, it's not a matter of developing guys and them taking time, my point is, if you're hoping they're going to be good, that's not a good sign - I don't have a problem with guys taking a little longer to develop but when you hope they're going to be good, that's not a good sign because you're not sure of yourself if you made the right pick or have the right guy - you have to be confident these guys are going to be good and KNOW they'll be good

 

[Cobiemonster]

or they had to develop.

wrong. the flyers offered more money to parise AND suter, and didnt get either of them.

and the rest is the same as above. teams do pray guys pan out. all the time. it's what you do with your draft picks. you can have the best scouts in the world but you still have to hope your coaches, their minor league coaches, and the players themselves, have what it takes to DEVELOP in to bonafide nhl difference makers. 18 year olds, regardless of how talented, skilled, and athletic they are, very rarely dominate the NHL. connor mcdavid probably will. but he's a once every 5 year kind of player.

That's the problem with the Flyers, as I mentioned before, all too often they put their eggs in one basket and hope it works - they were hoping to sign those guys, they shouldn't have been hoping, they should have either been confident or they should have already been trying to do something else

With all the really good young players in this league now, if you pray a guy is going to be good and he doesn't pan out, you must have really fucked up because I don't see very many cases where guys end up failing to play up to their potential - and if you don't think they're going to be good, you need to move them as quickly as possible and get guys you know will produce

The Flyers don't have a plan and that's killing them - they got all the young guys up front but still overpaid for stiffs like Mark Streit - they don't know what they're doing

 

[awaz]

How is that a matter of hoping? If you have good draft picks and a good salary cap, chances are you're going to be a good team - how many teams that have top picks, good contracts and not up on the salary cap all the time end up being bad? Why do you think more teams use that strategy now? Because they know that it will end up working out

Guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg were going to always be good, it's not a matter of developing guys and them taking time, my point is, if you're hoping they're going to be good, that's not a good sign - I don't have a problem with guys taking a little longer to develop but when you hope they're going to be good, that's not a good sign because you're not sure of yourself if you made the right pick or have the right guy - you have to be confident these guys are going to be good and KNOW they'll be good

of course they were. that's why they were drafted 171st and 210th respectively. because everyone knew they would be good eventually.

i dont know how you can KNOW anybody will be good 3 or 4 years down the road? wouldn't that just mean that everyone drafted 1-10 would be better than those drafted 10-20, etc etc. there's an aspect of hoping with every draft pick you make, i dont understand how you can do anything else?

 

[flyersfan4706]

Letang, although would be a huge upgrade on the Flyers, has been a culprit of their failures in the playoffs because he's gotten burnt more times than not

In Chicago, it's all Jonathan Toews and Patrick Kane, without them, they don't win, people talk about those guys more than Keith and Seabrook, because it's about those guys - the Blackhawks didn't get better until after they got Toews and Kane - Keith and Seabrook were there for at least a few seasons before they got Kane/Toews so that tells me without Toews and Kane they weren't going to win

And lucking out in free agency isn't really luck - if you really want to sign a player, you do it

You can't pray - you need to be aggressive yet smart - you don't see the great teams praying that guys will step up - that's how they get fired - teams who are aggressive and smart KNOW these guys will step up and don't need to pray that these guys will play well - if you get the right scouts and the right coaches around these guys you don't need to worry whether they'll be good enough - that's the problem with the Flyers, they don't develop guys well enough and that's their issue - if you had coaches down in the minors/juniors who developed well, you wouldn't need to pray that they'd be good - you're banking on these guys getting it on their own? That's not a good sign for this organization

This is why Ron Hextall needs to take over, a young, aggressive and smart GM doesn't sit on his hands and hopes/prays that guys will work out, he knows what he wants and the coaches put those guys in the right positions to succeed

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt with Letang, but I think you're seriously underestimate Keith and Seabrook's presence. Sure they might not be as valuable and Toews and Kane, but they're damn important and the Blackhawks would in no way be as good a team without them.

2012 proved you don't just sign guys if you want them that bad. It was reported that we offered both Parise and Suter the most money, yet they went elsewhere. What about that 14 year, $140mil offersheet on a small market team with a lockout looming? Yeah, that didn't work either.

Of course you don't see great teams praying that prospects pan out, they're great teams because their prospects panned out. Regardless of how good a scouting staff is they can't simply be aggressive and find these guys. You can find good prospects (Like the flyers have) but there is no way you can be certain they end up as a top end player. There is nothing you can do to be sure

 

[awaz]

That's the problem with the Flyers, as I mentioned before, all too often they put their eggs in one basket and hope it works - they were hoping to sign those guys, they shouldn't have been hoping, they should have either been confident or they should have already been trying to do something else

With all the really good young players in this league now, if you pray a guy is going to be good and he doesn't pan out, you must have really fucked up because I don't see very many cases where guys end up failing to play up to their potential - and if you don't think they're going to be good, you need to move them as quickly as possible and get guys you know will produce

The Flyers don't have a plan and that's killing them - they got all the young guys up front but still overpaid for stiffs like Mark Streit - they don't know what they're doing

i agree w/ you, they were never going to get suter and parise. shouldn't have even tried. but i'm not going to be upset with them for trying to get the two best players available.

and i dont think you're watching enough hockey if you dont think there are guys failing to play up to their potential. or you just look at the flyers with a very negative eye (like most of us haha)

zach bogosian
kyle turris
david runblad
scott glennie
pajarrvi-svensson
calvin de haan
nikita filatov
zach boychuk
kyle beach
jake gardiner
chet pickard
mikhail boedker
anton gustaffsson
zach hamil
keaton ellerby
alex plante
angelo esposito
brandon sutter
peter mueller
james sheppard
erik gudbranson
nino niedereitter
brandon gormley

every single one of those guys was drafted in the top 20, a lot of them in the top 10, over the past 5-6 years. should every team just trade them away and not count on them any more because they haven't made a difference yet?

 

[Cobiemonster]

i agree w/ you, they were never going to get suter and parise. shouldn't have even tried. but i'm not going to be upset with them for trying to get the two best players available.

and i dont think you're watching enough hockey if you dont think there are guys failing to play up to their potential. or you just look at the flyers with a very negative eye (like most of us haha)

zach bogosian
kyle turris
david runblad
scott glennie
pajarrvi-svensson
calvin de haan
nikita filatov
zach boychuk
kyle beach
jake gardiner
chet pickard
mikhail boedker
anton gustaffsson
zach hamil
keaton ellerby
alex plante
angelo esposito
brandon sutter
peter mueller
james sheppard
erik gudbranson
nino niedereitter
brandon gormley

every single one of those guys was drafted in the top 20, a lot of them in the top 10, over the past 5-6 years. should every team just trade them away and not count on them any more because they haven't made a difference yet?

I wouldn't trade those guys but the rest of them that I didn't bold, ended up being terrible and I'm pretty sure barring an overnight change, those guys not in bold aren't going to provide anything to anyone significant

At least half of those guys aren't even as good as what the Flyers have, so in some sorts, it's not a fair comparison

And plenty of teams have traded those players already(rightly or wrongly that's another debate for another day) so it's not like those guys were playing well when they were traded

 

[Cobiemonster]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt with Letang, but I think you're seriously underestimate Keith and Seabrook's presence. Sure they might not be as valuable and Toews and Kane, but they're damn important and the Blackhawks would in no way be as good a team without them.

2012 proved you don't just sign guys if you want them that bad. It was reported that we offered both Parise and Suter the most money, yet they went elsewhere. What about that 14 year, $140mil offersheet on a small market team with a lockout looming? Yeah, that didn't work either.

Of course you don't see great teams praying that prospects pan out, they're great teams because their prospects panned out. Regardless of how good a scouting staff is they can't simply be aggressive and find these guys. You can find good prospects (Like the flyers have) but there is no way you can be certain they end up as a top end player. There is nothing you can do to be sure

I'm not underestimating Keith and Seabrook, they're very good, but they needed a Toews and Kane in order to be showcased more and for their true abilities to come into play - it's like a good defense in football - it won't matter if you don't have a QB and the Hawks got their QB's in Toews/Kane and you see why they went to the next level - it's nothing wrong with Keith and Seabrook