Is LeBron James better than Michael Jordan?

[Raw_Bee808]

The Suns were not favored.

The Lakers possibly, but because of their history. Bulls had the vastly superior team.

All those teams were very good. None of them were great. The Warriors and Spurs were great.

I wasn't sure about Phoenix being favored ( I can't find anything online yet) I thought they might've been because the Bulls were thought to be beat up and tired after a tough series against the Knicks. Yes, the Lakers being favored was mostly based on reputation and also on the fact they beat a very good Blazer team that was supposed to make the Finals that year.

 

[Heatles84]

No he didn't though.

At least not true losses in Cleveland. GS was worlds better last year and they will be again this year if we get part 4.

The 2 losses in Miami for sure were against comparable talent. Dallas was clearly inferior talent wise.

In Cleveland he had a dynamic scoring guard who was an all star along with a all star PF who was capable of averaging 20 and 10. The fact that Love was nullified in those Warriors' series doesn't negate him being talented. Again, the talent goes to Golden St. but not by a significantly wide margin - and to that degree, a legit reason as to why they lost in 5 in such a dominating fashion.

 

[flyerhawk]

Probably not. The 07 Spurs he had a legit reason of losing to - that Spurs squad was in their prime and at the apex of their dynasty. In 2015, he was a man on an island. The problem is, a lot of Lebron's losses in the Finals particularly in years 2014 and 2017 is that they were by a considerable margin. And in those losses, he had comparable talent to the opposition.

The 2017 Cavs were comparable to the 2017 Warriors? You are seriously saying that?

The Mavericks loss is definitely a black mark on James' career.

 

[flyerhawk]

In Cleveland he had a dynamic scoring guard who was an all star along with a all star PF who was capable of averaging 20 and 10. The fact that Love was nullified in those Warriors' series doesn't negate him being talented. Again, the talent goes to Golden St. but not by a significantly wide margin - and to that degree, a legit reason as to why they lost in 5 in such a dominating fashion.

The Warriors won 73 games in 2016. They then acquired Kevin Durant, won 67 games and swept the 1st 3 series before losing their 1st game in Game 4 of the finals.

That Cavs team was very good but they were no match for the Warriors.

 

[tlance]

In Cleveland he had a dynamic scoring guard who was an all star along with a all star PF who was capable of averaging 20 and 10. The fact that Love was nullified in those Warriors' series doesn't negate him being talented. Again, the talent goes to Golden St. but not by a significantly wide margin - and to that degree, a legit reason as to why they lost in 5 in such a dominating fashion.

It really was though.

LeBron is the best, KD is the closest thing to him. 2 1st team all NBA players > 1.

Klay + Dray > Kyrie + Love

Warrior bench was greater than Cav bench.

One team was historically dominant and it wasn't Cleveland. Cleveland's only chance was injuries to GS.

 

[Raw_Bee808]

The 2017 Cavs were comparable to the 2017 Warriors? You are seriously saying that?

The Mavericks loss is definitely a black mark on James' career.

Do you think the loss in 2014 is a black mark on his career?

 

[flyerhawk]

Do you think the loss in 2014 is a black mark on his career?

Of course. IMO, that is the biggest negative mark on his career.

 

[Raw_Bee808]

Of course. IMO, that is the biggest negative mark on his career.

 

[Heatles84]

It really was though.

LeBron is the best, KD is the closest thing to him. 2 1st team all NBA players > 1.

Klay + Dray > Kyrie + Love

Warrior bench was greater than Cav bench.

One team was historically dominant and it wasn't Cleveland. Cleveland's only chance was injuries to GS.

Again, I'm not disputing that. But we're arguing Lebron being better than Jordan and not taking those Finals losses against him. I'm willing to dissect further. My point is is that with Lebron being as great as he is, with having a modicum of talent like he did, being blown out in 5 games in both 2014 and 2017 should also be looked as a negative, not something that you just throw aside. I'm willing to give him a pass for 2007 and 2015 given the obvious talent/injury issues his team's suffered. 2011 is 100% on him.

 

[Heatles84]

The Warriors won 73 games in 2016. They then acquired Kevin Durant, won 67 games and swept the 1st 3 series before losing their 1st game in Game 4 of the finals.

That Cavs team was very good but they were no match for the Warriors.

But they didn't even make it close, that's my point. If you're arguing for best player of the game, make it at least a series - he didn't do that.

 

[Heatles84]

The 2017 Cavs were comparable to the 2017 Warriors? You are seriously saying that?

The Mavericks loss is definitely a black mark on James' career.

Comparable in that the Cavs were at least within reach. Never said they were equal.

My point is - THEY GOT BLOWN OUT. IF YOU'RE GOING TO ARGUE AGAINST A FINAL LOSS. DON'T GET BLOWN OUT WHEN YOU HAVE 2 OTHER ALL STARS ON YOUR TEAM.

 

[flyerhawk]

Comparable in that the Cavs were at least within reach. Never said they were equal.

My point is - THEY GOT BLOWN OUT. IF YOU'RE GOING TO ARGUE AGAINST A FINAL LOSS. DON'T GET BLOWN OUT WHEN YOU HAVE 2 OTHER ALL STARS ON YOUR TEAM.

That is a completely arbitrary standard.

 

[trojanfan12]

Jordan lucked out playing in the shitty eastern conference or that tainted wins record doesn't happen. Had they played in the west they get 50.

In MJ's era, the East was the better conference.

Basically, MJ went through better teams to get to the finals than Lebron has.

But Lebron has faced tougher opponents once in the finals.

That kind of makes this particular part of the discussion a wash.

 

[trojanfan12]

The Lakers possibly, but because of their history. Bulls had the vastly superior team.

I don't believe the Lakers were favored. They had no business even making the finals that year. They weren't even the best team in the West and the Bulls had HCA.

The only reason they would have been favored would be because it was the Bulls first finals.

 

[Heatles84]

That is a completely arbitrary standard.

That's fair. And again, I'm not arguing his Finals record compared to MJ's. But it's my opinion that him getting absolutely demolished in the Finals in 2014 and 2017 gives me pause to give him a complete pass.

 

[tlance]

In MJ's era, the East was the better conference.

Basically, MJ went through better teams to get to the finals than Lebron has.

But Lebron has faced tougher opponents once in the finals.

That kind of makes this particular part of the discussion a wash.

See, that is where I disagree. It does not wash.

Yes, Jordan's East was significantly stronger than LeBron's.

But, no team MJ faced in the 90s had more than a puncher's chance to beat them. Most had no chance. Regadless of whether the East was better, he never faced a superior team during that entire run. LeBron has, multiple times.

Facing 1 superior opponent in a 7 game series is far more difficult than facing a string of quality opponents that aren't as good as you.

 

[msgkings322]

That's fair. And again, I'm not arguing his Finals record compared to MJ's. But it's my opinion that him getting absolutely demolished in the Finals in 2014 and 2017 gives me pause to give him a complete pass.

Did 'he' get demolished, or his team? He played great as always but there was no stopping that Warriors team.

 

[Heatles84]

Did 'he' get demolished, or his team? He played great as always but there was no stopping that Warriors team.

His team. But again, you as a basketball player have more of an effect on the outcome then say a baseball player or football player. In basketball you play both ends of the court. To have such a disparity on the outcome in both series is a legit reason on why he shouldn't get a full pass.

 

[msgkings322]

His team. But again, you as a basketball player have more of an effect on the outcome then say a baseball player or football player. In basketball you play both ends of the court. To have such a disparity on the outcome in both series is a legit reason on why he shouldn't get a full pass.

Just not sure what more he could have done in 2017

 

[Heatles84]

Just not sure what more he could have done in 2017

His defense was subpar compared to previous years. That's what was the Cavs' ultimate downfall that year. His team plays defense only as well as he does. When they see him actively engaged, they follow suit. When they see him coast on that end, the same situation applies.

Again, for a guy that's being put above MJ by some, at his apex why is his team getting blown out in some of these Finals? I can understand losing, but getting demolished is a whole different thing.