Confused about Willie Young, Jared Allen

[richig07]

Ok richig you have to explain this to me. My entire understanding of nfl defense is that the d linemen need leverage to control the run if the offensive linemen start moving forward. So...how exactly does taking our best run defender out of a three point stance make sense? Any fool can engage a right end. It's the guys who can stop a pulling guard or mauling tackle that are the premium.

My point is, that with the responsibilities that a SAM has, Houston is our best fit if you're talking about converting one of your DE's to OLB. Clearly, Fangio would agree. I kind of take comfort in the fact that he's in my company here. So, I find it hard to believe I am as far off base as some of you believe.

Getting a push up front is clearly where it always starts when you're talking about stopping the run. But in the 3-4, if your inside ILB's aren't capable of reading their keys and filling the gaps accordingly, and your OLB's can't seal the edge than you're going to be just vulnerable a lot of the time. Your LB's do have more responsibilities in run stopping the 3-4. Your ILB's must take on the opposing guard head on, most every play. If the guard pulls, he follows and must beat him to where he is going.

Any schmuck can engage a tight end at the LOS? Yes… ya know, I heard the Bears were actually just going to start pulling fans out of the crowd to do this.

And what is this utter and complete bull shit about SAM and WILL linebackers not being titles in the 3-4? That is absolute nonsense. The only difference is, that you add a 4th LB in the 3-4. Often referred to as the Jack linebacker. Sometimes the titles are used differently in the 3-4, and the WILL is your weak side inside backer. However, it's irrelevant as your responsibilities are the same.

Perhaps the names vary, but when I played in a 3-4 defense in HS and JUCO this is what they were called. This was clearly at a much lower level, but I only bring it up because it's the only experience I can account from. All I know, is that they don't just simply give the title "inside" or "outside" linebacker to your backers, and throw them out there. Each LB position has it's own set of responsibilities. Whether it's your SAM backer or your asshole backer, his responsibilities are the same.

 

[cubzzzfanincali]

Any schmuck can engage a tight end at the LOS? Yes… ya know, I heard the Bears were actually just going to start pulling fans out of the crowd to do this.
.

All I am saying is that stopping a tight end is (usually) a much easier task for a defender, and I wouldn't want my best run blocker wasted on a fairly generic need that can be met by players of average skill.

As for terminology, I am sure there are many approaches, but I think the WILL is a more common term than a SAM is in 3-4 systems. The rush LBs are usually called Elephants or Jacks. The other OLBs often don't have a designation in 3-4s. I don't think the term "SAM" is frequently used. Don't ask me why, I don't know. Maybe we could call them Peter, Paul, and Mary. Or Leomaz, Noon, and anotheridiot.

 

[richig07]

All I am saying is that stopping a tight end is (usually) a much easier task for a defender, and I wouldn't want my best run blocker wasted on a fairly generic need that can be met by players of average skill.

As for terminology, I am sure there are many approaches, but I think the WILL is a more common term than a SAM is in 3-4 systems. The rush LBs are usually called Elephants or Jacks. The other OLBs often don't have a designation in 3-4s. I don't think the term "SAM" is frequently used. Don't ask me why, I don't know. Maybe we could call them Peter, Paul, and Mary. Or Leomaz, Noon, and anotheridiot.

Lol. Fair enough as far as the titles go. In my experience, and with everything I've read about Fangio's defense. All positions are designated. I've heard the WILL be designated as the weak side ILB as well. Names seem to vary all over the place as far as the 3-4 goes. I don't know...

And I know what you meant by engaging the TE. I suppose I was just being difficult.

 

[anotheridiot]

The part we cant understand is why you want our best run defender defensive end playing linebacker when you still need run stopping defensive ends.

You either need big ends from the 4-3 or quick tackles from the 4-3 playing defensive end in the 3-4. I think Fangio is just saying we are going to find the guys that can play some coverage out of our too small defensive ends we have on the roster. No doubt the ones that end up back on the defensive line will be asked to bulk up.

I guess for me its clear to see that Allen wont be good in coverage and Young can be good in coverage. Players like Young and Bass are the kinds of DE's you want as the OLB because they are quick and active.

 

[NCChiFan]

The part we cant understand is why you want our best run defender defensive end playing linebacker when you still need run stopping defensive ends.

You either need big ends from the 4-3 or quick tackles from the 4-3 playing defensive end in the 3-4. I think Fangio is just saying we are going to find the guys that can play some coverage out of our too small defensive ends we have on the roster. No doubt the ones that end up back on the defensive line will be asked to bulk up.

I guess for me its clear to see that Allen wont be good in coverage and Young can be good in coverage. Players like Young and Bass are the kinds of DE's you want as the OLB because they are quick and active.

Except on a team where they already have 6 other OLB's... Odd problem to have, but who knows who's going to be outstanding, average or below average in this new system. Time will tell, but it won't surprise me if several are cut, guys we don't expect to be cut.

 

[richig07]

The part we cant understand is why you want our best run defender defensive end playing linebacker when you still need run stopping defensive ends.

You don't understand why Vic and I want our best run defender, playing a position that ideally requires you to be a good run defender?

This seems fairly self-explanatory.

 

[anotheridiot]

You don't understand why Vic and I want our best run defender, playing a position that ideally requires you to be a good run defender?

This seems fairly self-explanatory.

Well, hopefully, out of you two experts, one of you realize that changing a man from a 3 point stance on the line engaging immediately and standing away from the linemen and allowing said lineman to get a head of steam towards that defender to make their block is the difference between being a DE/DT that Houston has been his entire career to a linebacker. Sounds alot like the mentality that put Shea's hand down his first two seasons, only opposite....

Maybe he just wants to keep this bonehead from celebrating his first sack when the team is getting blown out.

 

[cubzzzfanincali]

Well, hopefully, out of you two experts, one of you realize that changing a man from a 3 point stance on the line engaging immediately and standing away from the linemen and allowing said lineman to get a head of steam towards that defender to make their block is the difference between being a DE/DT that Houston has been his entire career to a linebacker. Sounds alot like the mentality that put Shea's hand down his first two seasons, only opposite....

Maybe he just wants to keep this bonehead from celebrating his first sack when the team is getting blown out.

Haha, yeah maybe. But yeah I agree with you, standing up Houston doesn't make a lot of sense to me either.

I am just guessing that some of this is just early-regime, pre-draft, offseason-speculation type stuff. I have a funny feeling that when the dust settles, Houston is going to be lining up as the 3-4 DE.

 

[richig07]

Well, hopefully, out of you two experts, one of you realize that changing a man from a 3 point stance on the line engaging immediately and standing away from the linemen and allowing said lineman to get a head of steam towards that defender to make their block is the difference between being a DE/DT that Houston has been his entire career to a linebacker. Sounds alot like the mentality that put Shea's hand down his first two seasons, only opposite....

Yet, you want Willie Young to play that position.

I do not follow the Shea reference.

Shea is not good standing up… Shea is not good sitting down... Shea is not good with one hand down.
Shea is not good standing on his head… Shea is not good lying in his bed.

I do not like
that Shea-I-am. Do you like
green eggs and ham? I do not like them,
Shea-I-am.
I do not like
green eggs and ham.

 

[richig07]

Also, Houston had success playing standing up in Oakland. I'm just so confused here as to what I am missing.

At his introductory press conference last March, he stated he thought he was more disruptive playing in a two-point stance.

"When I play in the two-point, it works in my favor because I have a lot more vision throughout the play and I can see things develop quicker in front of me and see where I need to be in there to disrupt that play," he said, via Larry Mayer of ChicagoBears.com. "Out of the three-point, it's just all about explosiveness and power."

Because of Houston's experience playing both in a two-point stance and a three-point stance, Fangio has the option of moving Houston around from an outside linebacker to a 5-technique defensive end.

 

[anotheridiot]

Yet, you want Willie Young to play that position.

I do not follow the Shea reference.

Shea is not good standing up… Shea is not good sitting down... Shea is not good with one hand down.
Shea is not good standing on his head… Shea is not good lying in his bed.

I do not like
that Shea-I-am. Do you like
green eggs and ham? I do not like them,
Shea-I-am.
I do not like
green eggs and ham.

Willie young is a quick agile 251 pound defensive end. Willie Bass is a quick, agile 256 pound defensive end. Those are two linebacker sized guys playing defensive end. I see an easier transition. Shea is a 260 pound, undersized defensive end. Played 3-4 linebacker in college, transition simple.

Lamar Houston was a defensive tackle in college. He has played DE/DT ranging from 268 to 290 pounds. He was chosen as the best stat defensive ends in the free agent class by the chicago bears. His defensive stats that got him paid were playing at 300 pounds for the raiders. Oakland Raiders: Lamarr Houston He was our best run defending defensive end at 270 last year. Do you see the difference using 250 pound guys at linebacker not 275 pound guys who had their best statistical year playing at 300 pounds?

The Shea reference, She a was a stand up linebacker in college. He was drafted because of what he did in college. Emery decided he is not going to be a linebacker in the nfl, he is gonna change from his two point stance to a three point stance and be a defensive end. He was manhandled, overpowered and ineffective against 300 pound tackles he should have been quick enough to get around.

That is why I am saying its reverse of what they watched shea do badly. You have a 300 pound guard or center getting momentum, two or three steps and getting their block in a linebacker. The defensive ends need to tie those lineman up, clog holes, so the 250 pound guys have a free path to the runner.

 

[cubzzzfanincali]

Also, Houston had success playing standing up in Oakland. I'm just so confused here as to what I am missing.

At his introductory press conference last March, he stated he thought he was more disruptive playing in a two-point stance.

"When I play in the two-point, it works in my favor because I have a lot more vision throughout the play and I can see things develop quicker in front of me and see where I need to be in there to disrupt that play," he said, via Larry Mayer of ChicagoBears.com. "Out of the three-point, it's just all about explosiveness and power."

Because of Houston's experience playing both in a two-point stance and a three-point stance, Fangio has the option of moving Houston around from an outside linebacker to a 5-technique defensive end.

Well, OK. I don't know, my impression of him that it is his power that is his best attribute. He stoned the few times they tried to make him the point of attack. To me, that's the most crucial attribute in a 3-4 (particularly for a team still making the transition and with less-than-perfect personnel).

 

[richig07]

Willie young is a quick agile 251 pound defensive end. Willie Bass is a quick, agile 256 pound defensive end. Those are two linebacker sized guys playing defensive end. I see an easier transition. Shea is a 260 pound, undersized defensive end. Played 3-4 linebacker in college, transition simple.

Lamarr Houston is 27. Willie Young is 29.

Houston stood up in most of 2013 in Oakland.

So, let me try this game. "Lamarr Houston is a young 265 pound, quick and agile defensive end. Who has ALREADY had success standing up in the 3-4."

I'm sorry, but how doesn't mine win?

Oh, and aren't you kind of forgetting that Shea isn't good? Same likely for Bass. I mean, Bass is a fine depth guy… but...

 

[anotheridiot]

Also, Houston had success playing standing up in Oakland. I'm just so confused here as to what I am missing.

At his introductory press conference last March, he stated he thought he was more disruptive playing in a two-point stance.

"When I play in the two-point, it works in my favor because I have a lot more vision throughout the play and I can see things develop quicker in front of me and see where I need to be in there to disrupt that play," he said, via Larry Mayer of ChicagoBears.com. "Out of the three-point, it's just all about explosiveness and power."

Because of Houston's experience playing both in a two-point stance and a three-point stance, Fangio has the option of moving Houston around from an outside linebacker to a 5-technique defensive end.

I didnt know who Houston was last year when they signed him, I guess its just another guy that Tucker misused, well mostly because he never disguised defenses. Houstons best year was playing all 4 line positions in Oakland, so if you want to dissect stats to how he played in the two point or three point, I guess its up to you. When I read those lines from his interview last year, it sounds like a guy that wants the glory of defensive end and didnt want to play tackle again, maybe because there was more glory for the defensive ends and they get better camera time with their dance routines. I just see 4-3 ends as the smaller quicker guys and the middle three guys the 300 pound guys and know young got paid as a 300 pound player.

I really dont know who else you would consider that mammoth defensive end for the three hand down guys and maybe just think that since he is one of them, they should leave it alone. Disguise, shift, stand and rush, great, set in stone linebacker, just cant see it.

 

[anotheridiot]

Lamarr Houston is 27. Willie Young is 29.

Houston stood up in most of 2013 in Oakland.

So, let me try this game. "Lamarr Houston is a young 265 pound, quick and agile defensive end. Who has ALREADY had success standing up in the 3-4."

I'm sorry, but how doesn't mine win?

Oh, and aren't you kind of forgetting that Shea isn't good? Same likely for Bass. I mean, Bass is a fine depth guy… but...

If you want to win, you win. I am looking at personnel we have and trying to find enough guys to be the 3 part of the defense and houston was our best guy in that position last year. We already have a dozen trying to be the four part.

 

[richig07]

I didnt know who Houston was last year when they signed him, I guess its just another guy that Tucker misused, well mostly because he never disguised defenses. Houstons best year was playing all 4 line positions in Oakland, so if you want to dissect stats to how he played in the two point or three point, I guess its up to you. When I read those lines from his interview last year, it sounds like a guy that wants the glory of defensive end and didnt want to play tackle again, maybe because there was more glory for the defensive ends and they get better camera time with their dance routines. I just see 4-3 ends as the smaller quicker guys and the middle three guys the 300 pound guys and know young got paid as a 300 pound player.

I really dont know who else you would consider that mammoth defensive end for the three hand down guys and maybe just think that since he is one of them, they should leave it alone. Disguise, shift, stand and rush, great, set in stone linebacker, just cant see it.

I mean, in 2013. His contract year, that earned him the deal here. He was standing up mostly. Just saying.

Also, he's 265 pounds now. He's not anymore of fit size-wise for the 3/4i technique DE in a 3-4 than Willie Young is.

Ratliff and Macdonald are big dudes, both 290. You could see them on running downs. Young on passing downs. Ego, Jenkins and Sutton fit into the rotation as well. Some projections have Sutton at the 0 Tech as it stands right now. But I think we'll still draft a young nose tackle in the first few rounds as well. It will be a lot of trial and error in camp. I have to think.

 

[anotheridiot]

Ego to me fits more as the DE, he was always better getting to the QB from the DT anyway.But thats pretty well it, Sutton, Ego, Ratliff are the baseline for the three guys we had filling the three spots. People said Paea didnt fit, but played the nose in college. I just dont see you disguising much with those three.

Pretty much all I am saying, if you have 5 guys for those three starting positions (figuring most defenses want to rotate each possession) Houston is the guy that can play there. IF he stands up and moves out, you are still only gonna have two guys with their hands down that play. But he needs to actually play the position to actually make it a surprise that they shifted. OLB we have 12 or so guys vying for 8 holes and will probably draft at least 2 more.

Everyone wants the glory position, you still need the guys willing to work inside. Like you said, he stood up at 300 pounds in his contract season, maybe he needs to be that big to be effective and playing at 268 is not helping.

 

[richig07]

Ego to me fits more as the DE, he was always better getting to the QB from the DT anyway.But thats pretty well it, Sutton, Ego, Ratliff are the baseline for the three guys we had filling the three spots. People said Paea didnt fit, but played the nose in college. I just dont see you disguising much with those three.

Pretty much all I am saying, if you have 5 guys for those three starting positions (figuring most defenses want to rotate each possession) Houston is the guy that can play there. IF he stands up and moves out, you are still only gonna have two guys with their hands down that play. But he needs to actually play the position to actually make it a surprise that they shifted. OLB we have 12 or so guys vying for 8 holes and will probably draft at least 2 more.

Everyone wants the glory position, you still need the guys willing to work inside. Like you said, he stood up at 300 pounds in his contract season, maybe he needs to be that big to be effective and playing at 268 is not helping.

Lamarr Houston faces new challenge with Chicago Bears - NFL - SI.com

Houston started out as a defensive tackle who could kick out to end in Oakland's HYBRID schemes. But over the years, he kept dropping weight, and in 2013, he essentially played as an outside pass-rushing linebacker -- at 275 pounds

This is the article SI published when the Bears signed him. He dropped to 275 to stand up in 2013. Then lost 10 more pounds to play as a 4-3 DE. Very few people are going to be able to play LB at 300 pounds. If he was that heavy, I'd be all in with you that he has to be one of our DE's.

I'm also looking through this team's roster defensively. I'm not sure if there's room for Bass at all. He was a Tucker guy. With all of these guys up front and at OLB vying for spots. I'm not sure if he fits in.

 

[cubzzzfanincali]

Lamarr Houston is 27. Willie Young is 29.

Houston stood up in most of 2013 in Oakland.

So, let me try this game. "Lamarr Houston is a young 265 pound, quick and agile defensive end. Who has ALREADY had success standing up in the 3-4."

I'm sorry, but how doesn't mine win?

Oh, and aren't you kind of forgetting that Shea isn't good? Same likely for Bass. I mean, Bass is a fine depth guy… but...

Bass could be a guy to watch this year.

Houston, BTW, is listed at 300 pounds. He was over 300 when he was in Oakland. I definitely don't remember him spending most of that season standing up. Rarely I remember that, yes, but "mostly?" Definitely not my recollection.

 

[anotheridiot]

I think this just shows how bad this organizations plan was last year. They got a top graded 3-4 guy to play a 4-3. He signed here knowing they were not changing to a 3 man front. Feels he was misused meaning the entire defense should have been adjusted to his strength. There is plenty of confusion to go around with this guy.

When he got here it was like this year with us getting McPhee, I dont think many of us saw much of him.