The Official Fire Dusty Baker Thread

[bengaldoug]

BILLY BILLY BILLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[redsfan03]

I didn't like the call to force your second best hitter to bunt, but I didn't have a problem with leaving Heisey in. He's pretty fast and keep in mind that the pitcher at the time was a lefty. Even for Hamilton it's tough to steal on a lefty.

 

[WvuDieHard]

For all of you DUSTBUCKET lovers, just getting to the playoffs is not good enough. This thread was started not to vent as a fan but to expose the shortcomings of the manager. They are glaring and stand out like a sore thumb to people who know baseball. Redsfan1507, JohnU, and myself have been around the game and this team for 120 years combined--I think we know ineptness and stupidity when we see it. If this Reds team were to win a WS, it would be better than the 75-76 clubs because they had to do it with a manager that continuously doesn't put his team in the best position to win. You can mark these words, when Dustbucket gets in a playoff series( if he gets that chance) he will make a major fuck up--it is only consistent with his previous stints and his blundering during games in this season. I hope I am wrong and root for the Reds despite Dustbucket but the facts don't lie. All of you should look closer at the facts.

 

[eburg5000]

I hope you are not calling me a "Dustbucket lover" Wvu. That might be crossing the line abit. I don't like the way he makes up his lineups . Hate the fact that he lives and dies by the homerun. I don't like the way he answers questions by the media. With stupid sarcastic answers. and last but not least, I don't like the way he manages the game.
I just don't think everyone has to agree with my opinion or there stupid. People see things differently. Look at Politics. Some think our president is the best ever. Others think he is the worst. Both sides are passionate about their beliefs.

 

[BigBlueNation111]

A win is a win.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Why is Manny Parra pitching to consecutive righty hitters with LeCure warmed up in the pen ?

Why is he throwing them all curveballs ?

Why are they all doubling ?

Mercifully, Dusty has woken up after only allowing the Lastros to catch up.

 

[WvuDieHard]

DustMop is an idiot and anyone with baseball sense knows this. Last night, he intentionally walks a hitter to pitch to the hottest guy in the major leagues in September in Altuve. Altuve has been smashing the baseball. WTF was DustMop thinking there? Sure, he got bailed out by a Jay Bruce Web gem in right field but that was as idiotic as anything he has pulled all year. My only thought was that he looked at the DP's Altuve had grounded into (23 i think YTD) and said lets pitch to him. Which is still foolish because that is such a small statistic sample to base that decision from. It is so mind boggling to me how this retard has a job in the major leagues. But I want all of you to firmly get set in your chair and get yourself a bag of popcorn, get relaxed, cause you are see this retard really show his feathers in the playoff(s).

 

[Redsfan1507]

He repeatedly mismatched pitchers with righty Ondrusek pitching to lefty hitter, and lefty Parra and Duke pitching to righties...curveballs breaking into righty bats. Metrics mean nothing to Dusty, and he isn't held accountable when his quirks cost games... Again mismanagement lead to extra innings and bullpen work unnecessary if better sense lead to a 9 inning win instead of a 13th inning win. Dusty just isn't very good at most things a team needs a manager for, and the rest is just pocket lint. A contender wouldn't allow a shortstop to make 30 errors a year for 5 years without getting a better player, but Dusty's failings are ignored. The team has outgrown him. It's time for a manager that is as good at his job as the players are at theirs, IMO.

Like I said before, it's a matter of perspective, and it's entirely possible the Reds brass are happy with attendance and they may feel that winning enough to draw fans is good enough, and not worth the drama associated with relieving Dusty.

 

[WvuDieHard]

Bottom line is you can't fire a black manager with a winning record--period. Otherwise you would be called a racist. No chance of ever getting rid of Dusty until he wears out the best talent the Reds have had in 23 years. By then you will have expired contracts and age depleting a squad that should have won it all last year and has the talent to do it now. Dusty is like getting pissed on by a skunk--you just can't get rid of the smell very easily.

 

[Beggs]

So now we are blaming the manager for things that are the responsibility of the GM and for pitch selections made between the pitcher and catcher. Wow. Want to blame dusty for the high beer prices as well? Maybe parking is too expensive. Maybe dusty is responsible for Katrina as well.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Some doctors don't diagnose or prescribe because doing nothing can't be construed as malpractice, criminal negligence aside. Dusty prescribes much if his medicine to that theory, and plays all his mistakes off on players incompetence, instead of his own. It takes more than the good sense to recognize bullshidt from baseball 101, a GM has to represent his client- the ownership group, in the best financial light possible. As long as fans buy the product at an acceptable profit margin, "success" can be had without ever winning a trophy.

I don't think the Reds are trying to scam Reds fans, I just don't think the risk of bad PR from defending the race card played after Dusty was hypothetically let go, is worth the potential of winning another post season series or two, as long as the fans don't stop paying. It is entirely possible a better manager could be the recipient of an unforeseen rash of injuries, or an uprising among disgruntled players, a lapse in farm talent, or other anomaly, that would result in less wins than the ousted Dusty had.

It's all a matter of perspective, and the business facts are that change is only driven by unacceptable conditions. Winning at the box office or TV contract, isn't dependant on winning the World Series. It is dependant on winning the donations if its constituents...and a racist decision by a team on the Mason-Dixon Line letting the winningest black manager in history go, after bringing the Reds back from a decade if losing under white managers isn't a story line that gets more ESPN coverage - at least not the kind that generates more cash for the Reds.

At the time Dusty was hired, the Reds needed to clean house and hire a name manager that had respect if players...they weren't ready to win from a farm or talent perspective, but they needed to build credibility to gain fans cash. Dusty helped do that. Unfortunately, the talent is there now, and it exceeds Dusty's ability to take them to the highest level. The team has outgrown him. Unfortunately, Dusty just isn't ready to step aside for the good of the team, assuming a better choice is available...He isn't that much of a Red, he's just the hired help trying to get to the Hall if Fame, with only a lack of a World Championship standing in his way...and there are no other teams this talented breaking down his door to hire him away from the Reds. The Reds and Dusty are stuck with each other. Occasionally, I think Dusty does some things to antagonize Jocketty, flex his muscles and have it his way. Dusty simply couldn't be as stupid as sone of his decisions ? but he could be that stubborn, vindictive and proud...and he has the unspoken threat of a trump card as the last word. Unfortunate.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Dusty isn't going to be fired, unless the Reds BOTH lose, and lose money. They have a better chance promoting him to a front office position with an impressive contract and title.

 

[Beggs]

Lets take a look at a few of your insights of baseball knowledge:

He repeatedly mismatched pitchers with righty Ondrusek pitching to lefty hitter, and lefty Parra and Duke pitching to righties...curveballs breaking into righty bats.

You claim he is mismatching Ondrusek against lefties? His K/BB rate against lefties is more than double than against righties. His BA and OBP against is almost identical, a .005 and .009 difference. He has given up 3 more HR's to lefties than righties, which would account for the increase in slugging. His impact against lefties was even more pronounced last season with almost a 100 point improvement in BA against.

Parra has struggled against righties this year, that is correct, but Parra was never a specialist against one side or the other. When he was moved to the bull pen in 2010, he actually had great success against right handers. Duke does have a majority of his strikeouts against lefties, but he is still giving up hits at the same right to both sides of the plate. Dusty is not the one calling the pitches. Parra and Duke are both veterans of the game. If they keep getting hits by throwing curveballs breaking right towards the hitter, that is on them.

Metrics mean nothing to Dusty, and he isn't held accountable when his quirks cost games...

They mean less to you

Again mismanagement lead to extra innings and bullpen work unnecessary if better sense lead to a 9 inning win instead of a 13th inning win.

You know what else needs to happen for a 9 inning win instead of a 13th inning win? Batters need to knock in runs. You don't win the game by just keeping the other team from scoring.

Dusty just isn't very good at most things a team needs a manager for, and the rest is just pocket lint. A contender wouldn't allow a shortstop to make 30 errors a year for 5 years without getting a better player,

Are we keeping a more reliable and better hitting SS on the bench somewhere? Is Dusty responsible for calling up players or signing off trades?

but Dusty's failings are ignored. The team has outgrown him. It's time for a manager that is as good at his job as the players are at theirs, IMO.

Like I said before, it's a matter of perspective, and it's entirely possible the Reds brass are happy with attendance and they may feel that winning enough to draw fans is good enough, and not worth the drama associated with relieving Dusty.

It is a matter of perspective, and your perspective is pure trash. You know nothing but whining and bitching. You pretend you know so much, but all your knowledge comes straight out your ass. Do us all a favor and start rooting for the Cardinals, you will fit in great there.

 

[WvuDieHard]

AHA another Dusty jock supporter! You are in the minority around here Beggs. Your Dusty man love will only be laughed at and jeered buy those who know BS when they here it. 1507 is spot on --your just like a jilted lover. Take that Dusty man love and stick it in your ass. You wont get support around here with that shit.

 

[eburg5000]

I don't know, I think he might be right about Dusty being responsible for the high cost of beer at the ballpark.
I don't think the Reds management will fire Dusty either, To the rest of the baseball world. Outside of Cincinnati, Chicago, and SF. It would look ridiculous to fire a manager who has gotten a team to the playoffs 3 out of the last 4 years, and 90 + wins 2 years (providing they can win more than 3 games the rest of this year). But when you see some of the crazy moves Dusty makes. I can see why fans would want to see him fired.
I'm thinking Dusty might step down after next year anyway.

 

[Beggs]

AHA another Dusty jock supporter! You are in the minority around here Beggs. Your Dusty man love will only be laughed at and jeered buy those who know BS when they here it. 1507 is spot on --your just like a jilted lover. Take that Dusty man love and stick it in your ass. You wont get support around here with that shit.

Funny part is, Im not a Dusty supporter. He does things that irritate me, but I'm not a clueless crybaby. The best part is I have not said one good thing Dusty has done in any of my posts, but I have called you out on your placing blame where it doesnt belong solely to fit your agenda. Nice retort to my previous post.

 

[redsfan03]

I don't know, I think he might be right about Dusty being responsible for the high cost of beer at the ballpark.
I don't think the Reds management will fire Dusty either, To the rest of the baseball world. Outside of Cincinnati, Chicago, and SF. It would look ridiculous to fire a manager who has gotten a team to the playoffs 3 out of the last 4 years, and 90 + wins 2 years (providing they can win more than 3 games the rest of this year). But when you see some of the crazy moves Dusty makes. I can see why fans would want to see him fired.
I'm thinking Dusty might step down after next year anyway.

I was really hoping Dusty would step down after last season with his health problems, but to no avail. It's possible that he could step down after next year if the Reds don't have that great of a season. I think with Dusty, as with most things in this world, there's more gray than people would like to think. On one side we have Reds fans who blame everything on Dusty and on the other side we have Reds fans who are Dusty apologists, making excuses for blatant blunders. The reality is that he probably gets too much credit for wins and too much blame for losses. Personally, I don't think he's the guy who's going to propel the Reds to the World Series, but I also think the Reds could do plenty worse. In my opinion, he's a mediocre manager. Not awful, not great. His career record reflects that, too, as he's hovering around .500, which by definition is mediocre. But there are hundreds of managers in baseball history who have had much worse career winning percentages.

As much as I hate to say it, I don't think Walt Jocketty gets as much blame as he should. He got off to a great start as the Reds GM, but I haven't been as impressed with him as his tenure has progressed. Most of the guys on the Reds bench wouldn't have jobs with MLB teams. He gave up way too much in the Sean Marshall trade for a dime-a-dozen set up man and then signed him for far more than he's worth. He has been indecisive on how to utilize Aroldis Chapman. While he hasn't been on the same page as Dusty on a number of things, he hasn't taken a hardline against Dusty. He signed Ryan Ludwick for far more than he's worth. I understand that Jocketty is working with a limited budget and an equally limited budget fanbase in terms of attendance, but Dusty gets some flak that Jocketty deserves imo. He's the one who's getting the personnel in place. The personnel, in turn, are the ones who have direct control over the outcomes of games. Dusty just manages them (albeit in a flawed manner).

 

[WvuDieHard]

Sorry Beggs. That retort was indeed uncalled for. I am a passionate anti-Dusty person after witnessing some really grotesque managing. I have seen 4 instances of really stupid stuff that just infuriates me. I have been a Reds fan for 40 years, so just like you, I too want to win even with Dusty. I just don't see how Dustmop will ever put this team in a position to win. We should be up 3-4 games in this division right now with top notch managing. I dont rag on Dusty for every little thing because I realize that some moves are subjective and have merit. It is the moves that are down right atrocious that drives me wild. Like asking Simon to bunt in a game( when he hasnt had a sac bunt in 7 years) and then pulling him the next inning. Senseless errors by the bench. Again Beggs, apologies to you for my foul retort.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Beggs,

I try to refrain from sliding into personal attacks with posters, because lowlife weaklings tend to drag one down to the gutter, where it's home turf for them. I have nothing to prove, and aren't trying to impress some faceless total stranger like you. I'm sure if we were eye to eye you would prove to be far less difficult to communicate with.

I've probably forgotten more baseball than you ever knew. Im relatively certain I've been paid far more for my perspective on the game than you have, but of course Dusty has been paid far more than me, so that alone doesn't prove anything. Everyone is entitled here...to opinion, regardless of merit. It's why in talking to you. Dustys personal managerial success IMO, is a product of the good ol boy system, baseballs version of Afirmative Action, and mostly, due to fans like you, that think its raining when a hometown media minion pisses down your back.

Over a century of metrics say that the more Ondrusek, or any pitcher tosses breaking stuff to opposite handed hitters, the more likely those minute sized samples of success doing the wrong thing, are to trend back to failure. In a game where the best hitters make outs 70% of the time, im never suprized when every inopportune pitch idnt crushed, but as a fan, Id advise not to be surprised when things tend to go sour at critical times with "matchup strategy in reverse" is employed...better players and better teams hit a lot better in a short sample when they are opposed by Bafoonery. Dusty's best attribute is that he's more likely to inspire a miracle...because his typical game "plan" requires one to win against equal competition. Look at his record. It is a long sample sized one, easy to digest, even for mathematically challenged folks like you and he.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Rf03,

I can't disagree much on anything you said...I've questioned Jocketty as well..one point though, he hasn't been indecisive on Chapman, he's made it clear he wants him to start, from the beginning. What he has been indecisive on, is his ability to make Dusty follow his plan, or admonish him for blatant blunders. Jocketty has a boss, too... and although the roster is Jocketty's responsibility, how it's used is Dusty's...and it's clear regardless of the obligatory company public line, Dusty and Walt haven't been on the same page on several occasions...Jocketty has had to remove several players from the roster to insure higher ceiling players got playing time, when Dusty refused. That's a lot easier when the talent isn't as high as it is now. He can't very well trade Chapman and still have him in the rotation. He can choose not resign Arroyo though, and put another LHSP like Cingrani in a better position. Does that kind of move make a team stronger ? To me, it's adversity that wastes a couple of things a team can't get back- like the short lifespan of a winning team, and the money wasted on under utilized talent.

You are right- Dusty is only a mediocre manager, not the worst by far...Unfortunately, this is a team with better than mediocre ability. It wasn't the case when Dusty arrived, but the talent had outgrown a mediocre manager- and unless they want lesser results than the talent can produce, they need a manager as good as they are to be the best TEAM. Dusty is fine on a team where .500 is the goal, and it's a great year to be the first team out of the playoffs every do often.

Players age. They file for free agency. They get hurt. Farms decline, and payroll isn't guaranteed every year. I'm tired of pissing away chances to win waiting on Dusty's miracle epiphany of a MLB where he has enough talent to overcome his mediocrity. I don't think this team or I will last that long.