The Official Fire Dusty Baker Thread

[WvuDieHard]

It is time to do this? Even though the Reds are playing winning baseball and in line for wild card spot: ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Too many coaching mistakes, too many stupid baseball 101 mistakes, and lastly a team playing lackadaisical and without intensity. Sign the thread if you think it is time for a change. We will move this on to facebook and other sites. As a 41 year Reds fan, I am tired of this shit. Tired of watching simple fundamental baseball decisions be butchered by an ex-dodger BUM.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Much like getting Ludwick back won't cure the offense, firing Dusty wont be an instant fix either.

I'm no fan of Dusty, and have believed there were better answers available before. 2011 was a good time. I also wouldn't have offered more than a 1 year deal after the 2012 playoff debacle...and maybe he would have found a better offer and left on his own, or if he only accepted the 1 year deal, maybe there would have been a little more sense of urgency this season.

I suppose the real answer is within a few questions:

The message firing him would send to most is that the Reds believe they underachieved and Dusty was a part of that. I think it's accurate, but not sure the Reds brass feel that way, and Cueto, Broxton, Marshall and Ludwick are convenient excuses to argue. Are the benefits of fighting those defenses of Dusty worth it ?

Players that play, like playing for Dusty. They, like everyone semi satisfied in their own situation, resist change. Dusty doesn't change. How players react depends a lot on how the new manager and staff relate. I know this, someone that wants to improve isn't going to do that with sympathy and kindness. There would be ruffled feathers. Motivation and chemistry aren't always the same. Is this a plus or minus ?

WHO replaces Dusty is critical to the above, and more. Players like to win, and there is little doubt a more fundamentally sound dugout staff would lose fewer games, as long as players kept producing at leaßt at current levels. Is there a guy that fits ? Who is he ?

There are PR risks. Beyond the race card- which had been played by Dusty in Atlanta and LA as a player and in SF and Chicago as a manager, there is the potential the Reds are going to struggle next year anyway-with the loss of Choo and Arroyo, and the uncertain health of Cueto, Broxton, Marshall, and the uncertain offensive performance issues of Frazier and Cozart, and whoever replaces Choo. If a new hit cones in with a weaker team, what's that going to do for credibility of firing Dusty ? Does it make more political sense to wait on him to get run out of town by fans wantkng more, or by his own decline with the roster ?

Sometimes medicine that tastes bad, still cures the patient, but it goes down better if the pain is secede enough to ask for it, instead of a preemptive forced down your throat thing.

 

[WvuDieHard]

Well, the flames were eased last night with a 10-0 rake of the Birdlins but it cannot erase Dustbucket's body of work. I did notice that in a presser BP went off on a reporter who questioned his .312 OBP. I also noticed that Dustbucket blew a gasket on his players for "underachieving in the last 5 games". Here lies the issue: Motivation and a sense of urgency. The Reds haven't shown either on the field or in the dugout. Maybe that is about to change? If it does, the Reds will win the division because the talent is overwhelmingly present. I look at the last 3 years of Dustranomics and I don't see the results that equate to the talent. As for managers, Riggleman would be more than an ample replacement and deserves another chance. There are others too that teach and make their ball clubs better. Give me one area of this team( except pitching) where this club is better today than when Dustbucket strolled into town? Tough one isn't it? The only thing consistent with Dustbucket is inconsistency from the players he puts on the field. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

 

[Redsfan1507]

I can't disagree much.

The roster has improved, the farm has improved, the D, the pitching, and the W/L and attendance of course. None of those can be attributed to Dusty I believe. I think "respect" or lack of it was a factor immediately before Dusty, with "no-name" guys like McKannon, Narron, etc...but having slackers like KGJ, Dunn, A-Gone, Encarnacion, etc. didn't help those guys either. Pitching is huge, and it started improving about the time Dusty arrived. Walt Jocketty helped bring some credibility to the front office. Price is an improvement over Dusty's choice-Dick Pole. The ouster of bad D, bad attitude players and maturation of farmhands like Bruce, Cueto, Bailey, Mesoraco, Hanigan, Cozart, and a few additions like Latos have transformed the Reds from a team in the gutter to a contender.

In the evolution of a team, sometimes you can only go so far with what you have. Dave Bristol was replaced by Sparky at the infancy of the BRM. If such a replacement is available, current roster could be aided by it. I don't believe a manager makes more than a dozen games difference in most teams, but that's a big number when you look at the standings. Teams do kind of take on the personality of the guy making out the lineup card...the Reds have had worse than Dusty, but if you are looking to improve at a higher level, you gotta hold the bar higher, too.

 

[Yu Lee - A Nova Lover]

Who was Mike Matheny before 2012?!?

 

[Redsfan1507]

He was a Cardinal catcher. Kinda like our Corky Miller, only better, I suppose. Cardinal organization guy. Smart. Knows the Cardinal system and methodology. Not a requirement but I think when you have a successful organization, hiring a guy on the same page is a good idea.

 

[JohnU]

What annoyed me last night was Dusty's insistence that Homer get an out in the 8th inning before taking him down. As if 118 pitches was better than 112. Why was getting that out necessary? So Homer could have 7 1/3 innings instead of just a regular 7? Is their a contract clause there?

Dusty had no problem taking out the regulars but decided that giving Christiani or Ondrusek a FULL inning was not good strategy. I just don't understand why Homer had to even go back out there in the 8th ... so Dusty could make the stroll to the mound and take him out in front of the crowd?

This is the kind of shit that causes me concern. This is the kind of dripstick who manages the team. Let Homer go out there and get ONE out, then we will go to the pen. (That ONE out ... that was the signature moment for this sharp-as-a-tack manager.) Hoover evidently needed to prove he could get outs with no stress on him.

Christiani just could be OK getting an inning of anything. Why have the guy on the team if you use your regular relievers and then bitch when they are overworked?

 

[Redsfan1507]

I think you have the Dusty rash, John. I've got scars from scratching mine.

Years ago, when I mistakenly was happy about the Reds hiring Dusty, I scoffed at Giants and Cub fans telling me I would be sorry. I told them it was just sour grapes. I was wrong, they were right. Dusty is vinegar.

Unfortunately, I think the Reds might have to collapse before they boot Dusty, and indont wish for that...unless he can be convinced to take a "promotion" or maybe give up his job to his son...hope it doesn't take that long.

 

[Yu Lee - A Nova Lover]

He was a Cardinal catcher. Kinda like our Corky Miller, only better, I suppose. Cardinal organization guy. Smart. Knows the Cardinal system and methodology. Not a requirement but I think when you have a successful organization, hiring a guy on the same page is a good idea.

I'm not saying advising the team to hire Corky Miller as manager )).... but players who were catchers seem to manage pitching staffs better.

 

[WvuDieHard]

I went to bed so I missed Homer pitching to one batter in the eighth. The sound of that is just unfathomable--Why? Were is the benefit? What was the reason? This is the kind of minutia DustMop brings to the table. Yet, in many ways it makes sense because the Dustbucket always makes irrelevant moves but seems to sleep through the moves that are most urgent or of common sense. The more I see of this inconsistent bull shit, the more I believe Dustbucket is just dumb and not very smart often out thinking himself.

 

[Redsfan1507]

I dont have the Dustyest idea why Homer wasn't removed before, or left to finish. It didn't impact the game so I tend to try to pick bigger battles. Stuff like that does tend to effect shaman tics if who's available in the pen though. Maybe he was getting someone some work, or simply forgot pitch count and inning...it happens around here.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Corky Miller might make a fine manager. Strange, but usually, the best players aren't the best managers. I always thought that players with less ability were forced to learn more, or maybe it's just genetics and survival instincts compensating with more brains for less physical tools. I thought Ron Oester would manage- but be an Alvin Dark / Dick Williams type hard ass. I think Joe Oliver could. I thought Doug Flynn would have been a great manager- fundamentally sound, aw shucks kind of personality.

He wasn't a bad manager, but I'm amazed a guy like Billy Martin ever got the chance- rule breaking boozer as a player. Joe Torre was a good player and a good manager- they're rare. Maybe Mattingly and Sandberg will be too.

 

[Yu Lee - A Nova Lover]

I went to bed so I missed Homer pitching to one batter in the eighth. The sound of that is just unfathomable--Why? Were is the benefit? What was the reason? This is the kind of minutia DustMop brings to the table. Yet, in many ways it makes sense because the Dustbucket always makes irrelevant moves but seems to sleep through the moves that are most urgent or of common sense. The more I see of this inconsistent bull shit, the more I believe Dustbucket is just dumb and not very smart often out thinking himself.

How can Dusty injure Homer's arm by years end if he doesn't give him more work?!?

Dusty is working on limited time (late in the season).

 

[JohnU]

The idea of anything other than sending the guy out there in the first place in the 8th boggles my mind.
Even if he gets out of the inning 1-2-3, there was no reason to not let Christiani pitch. He had taken all the other regulars out, and so had Matheny. Bringing in Hoover blew my mind. The guy has pitched a half-dozen times in the last 2 weeks. The question is: Is it better to take the guy out before he takes the mound or do we do the Dusty stroll and wait till he's out there, THEN take him out after 2 hitters?
Dusty has done some other dipstick stuff, like bizarre double switches that would have just been as well done by calling in a pinch hitter.

 

[ckhokie]

Does this thread include the 'Fire Mark Berry' and 'Fire Brook Jacoby' thread too?

 

[Redsfan1507]

Amen.

I know it's inconvenient that Mr. Berry is fighting throat cancer, but he's getting a lot of undeserved good PR from the Reds media, IMO. I've watched him forget trailing runners since he's been in Cincinnati . I've seen no evidence Jacoby has been positively effective at all. George Brett spent 3 weeks parking with a couple of KC hitters, helped the problem, and left. Just saying.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Read the CBS article on Ryne Sandberg...impressed with his humility ( HOF agreeing to go manage in the minors before MLB), and his admission that he wouldn't have been prepared without managing in the minors...a former middle infielder, a cerebral player and higher energy kind of manager than Dusty-esc Charlie Manuel. There are no guarantees, but I like his chances as a manager, especially with the Phillies- a team in transition from a former mini-dynasty with now aging components like Rollins, Utley, Halladay, etc. with a younger group of players to mix in, and a payroll history that would suggest they could support a farm refresher and a ready made answer or two via free agency or trade. He's an approachable, quiet guy that has some drive and willingness to do different things offensively. I can't help but believe the Cubs made a mistake letting him leave, given their current bent on building instead of buying a winning team.

It's unfounded, and unfair, to compare him to Dusty, who is so different in so many ways- Dusty, although a player if note, was neither a HOF player, or managed in the minors, nor has been accused often of being all that driven or willing to do different things, but has won 1600 MLB games as a manager...time will tell, but I also wish in many ways the Reds had made (or will) a similar choice to take our Reds to another level.

 

[JohnU]

Reds show an inability to sustain a winning streak beyond 3 games. That will keep them where they are.

 

[eburg5000]

I guess the up side to that, is they don't seem to lose more than 3 in a row either.

 

[Yu Lee - A Nova Lover]

I guess the up side to that, is they don't seem to lose more than 3 in a row either.

You are more of a the glass is 1/4 full guy (instead of the glass is almost empty type of guy).