Lakers were embarrassing.

[starbigd]

Starbigd, you have some legitimate points that are based in reality that describes Howard the way he has played at times this season with his injuries and the like. And BRS has some legitimate points on the way Howard has played as well. We have seen flashes of brilliance this year even with all of his issues. You both and others on this thread have mentioned that the Lakers really need to decide where they want to take the franchise and do they have enough evidence to include D12 in that vision?

Another alternative would be to decide to go into rebuilding mode without D12. Re-sign Pau to an extension and go with a guy already sitting on the bench. Bring in another coach because Don'tknowi has clearly demonstrated his lack of coaching acumen and use a guy like B. Shaw to develop young talent like Clark, Hill, Meeks, Blake, Morris, and yes Robert Sacre.

Sure, Sacre is no D12 but if you bring in say KAJ and have him work with Sacre like he did with Bynum, you develop the consistent big man everyone is looking for for a fraction of the cost. You play him with a Kobe and Pau and you build his offense and defense. When Sacre did play this year during one of those rashes of injuries, he played pretty well and I liked his energy and willingness to OWN the middle of the court, something D12 used to demonstrate night-in and night-out but has since become inconsistent at least this year.

So, like someone else stated, we are providing predictions with alot of ways to go and only the Lakers FO really knows which way they want to go. More should be happening as we get closer to the draft.

The best quote I've seen is that you can build around D12 but you can't build WITH D12.

That and Jerry West says he would absolutely NOT give him a new contract if he were the GM.

 

[Retroram52]

Yea StarbigD. I saw that exchange with the logo and the media and he unequivocally stated he would not sign D12 and he would let him walk because Howard, in West's opinion, did not fit the definition of a go-to guy consistently when the game is on the line. Jerry also stated that he felt that Howard, at least from this year's performance, did not provide enough evidence for Jerry to be comfortable with the decision to build a franchise with D12 in it.

I say, all of this is fine but the Lakers should keep an eye on this but continue to focus on other areas that need fixing such as our lack of speed on O and D in the backcourt. They can solve the many problems we have by signing CP3 who is a FA pretty soon and is right across the hall. Re-visit the trade that really should have been and jettison some aging players like Nash through a trade as well as people like Duhon who really is not going anywhere in terms of development.

Then if D12 signs so be it. If not, keep Pau and begin to develop Sacre who is a pretty good young player along with Hill and Clark. We would be further ahead in terms of youth and removing aging players as well.

 

[starbigd]

Yea StarbigD. I saw that exchange with the logo and the media and he unequivocally stated he would not sign D12 and he would let him walk because Howard, in West's opinion, did not fit the definition of a go-to guy consistently when the game is on the line. Jerry also stated that he felt that Howard, at least from this year's performance, did not provide enough evidence for Jerry to be comfortable with the decision to build a franchise with D12 in it.

I say, all of this is fine but the Lakers should keep an eye on this but continue to focus on other areas that need fixing such as our lack of speed on O and D in the backcourt. They can solve the many problems we have by signing CP3 who is a FA pretty soon and is right across the hall. Re-visit the trade that really should have been and jettison some aging players like Nash through a trade as well as people like Duhon who really is not going anywhere in terms of development.

Then if D12 signs so be it. If not, keep Pau and begin to develop Sacre who is a pretty good young player along with Hill and Clark. We would be further ahead in terms of youth and removing aging players as well.

My stance has always been that the Lakers backcourt was their downfall. I actually predicted before the season that they would either not make playoffs or get swept first round. I was told I was crazy, and a hater.

I watched Dallas light LA up from outside in 2011 with shooters that didn't even move. Old man Stojakovic couldn't even run.......and he hit like 500 3s from the same spot on the floor in one game on you. I knew then this was going to be a major issue going forward if Kupchak didn't address it, and he didn't.

The West has too many PGs and SGs that can outright KILL you, and the Lakers have all but ignored that focusing instead on interior size. The problem with that is that the PG initiates the offense.......if you allow any PG to do as he pleases, you're probably going to lose.

Let's say its Tony Parker......he gets by his man, and is now in the lane. He has several options: his tried and true tear drop shot, or he can drive to the hole for the layup, or he can wait for the D to collapse and dish to a shooter, or he can try to draw a foul on Howard/Gasol. You witnessed EVERY one of those options get exercised every single game of that series.

I've never understood why this very blatant and obvious flaw has never really been addressed by an organization like the Lakers. The history of great guard play.......and it's like Kupchak has forgotten that this game is run and controlled by the guards, not the frontcourt.

 

[geneh_33]

 

[geneh_33]

I think the LA organization thought bringing in Nash was going to help solve the guard problem. It didn't, unfortunately.

 

[Retroram52]

StarbigD: Before SeeBS closed up their boards, the majority of us that migrated from there had already discussed that topic ad nauseum because it usually included a discussion concerning Kobe, who by all estimations, managed to reduce the glaring quality of the problem you outlined with our backcourt with his usual head-strong determined play.

The Lakers were willing to live with a trade-off of focusing on their bigs if Kobe could overcome some of those weaknesses which he did to a certain extent. Whether he accomplished that trade-off to the satisfaction of translating into wins and wins during playoff basketball remains to be discussed among the pundits but one thing is for sure is when Kobe went down then all of the backcourt weaknesses that were there became glaringly obvious even though Blake, Meeks, and whoever else played tried their level best to overcome. Don'tknowi did not help either because he simply is a dope.

You are correct in that we witnessed those exact moves and options by Parker in the short time we existed in that series and we did not have an answer. Then our bigs could not cover a penetrating Ginobilli and when that occurred we did not have the championship level determination of a Kobe to bail us out. Having stated that we have already discussed, again over at SeeBS, the contribution to all of this from Jim Buss conveniently known as Short Buss because he is both short in stature and basketball acumen. I am not going to go into all of the details but Short Buss failed miserably on getting Nash with the idea that he could make everything work at his age and that foolishness simply caught up with us and the exact purpose for bringing him here still remains nebulous at best. His sister was dead set against the move of bringing Nash here but Short Buss made the move anyway.

So when Nash went down and continued to stay down, our backcourt problems remained even though Nash was never going to be able to solve them at his age. But what was reasoned was that a particular offense might negate the speed of other guards if Nash was running it. Well as we all found out, all of this was fools gold reasoning and the end result was as we all witnessed a bona fide ass whoopin'

Yea, many of us who routinely follow the Lakers had the same conundrum because Mitch knows that speedy guard with sharp shooting ability and play runs the league these days and he tried to address that issue when we started this season trading for Chris Paul. But mettle-boy David Stern had to screw everythng up. After that, it seemed that we went into panick mode and suddenly Nash was the next best thing. Stupid, Stupid, Stupid.

Now are ass is in a ringer of sorts because we mortaged the farm for these players until at least 2015. So, it is indeed puzzling and it'll be interesting to see what happens in the coming months with Lakers for sure.

 

[geneh_33]

I would liked to have seen the Lakers with Chris Paul. Even though I don't like the Lakers I would have liked to see what he could do in a Laker uniform.

 

[Big Red Slugs]

Regarding the bigs and quicker guards, I've already tried to explain when Star brought this up previously, saying that Bynum for Howard was a lateral move, that Howard is more athletic and agile than Bynum, ergo Howard can show on the screen-roll a lot better than Bynum, which is actually what was killing us in previous years, the screen-roll defense breaking down.

And the Lakers defense actually improved tremendously when Kobe went down.

 

[heatmyshorts]

Regarding the bigs and quicker guards, I've already tried to explain when Star brought this up previously, saying that Bynum for Howard was a lateral move, that Howard is more athletic and agile than Bynum, ergo Howard can show on the screen-roll a lot better than Bynum, which is actually what was killing us in previous years, the screen-roll defense breaking down.

And the Lakers defense actually improved tremendously when Kobe went down.

Not sold on Howard over Bynum just yet other than Bynum's injury damaged his worth. Bynum's offensive skill set is much better than Howard. You cannot resort to "hack a Bynum". Bynum was young enough that he certainly hasn't reached his peak.

Agree that the Laker organization ignored improving the quality of their guards. Some of it is Kobe because the Lakers depended on him so much. If Kobe and Howard stays, then trading Gasol and World Peace to improve their guards would put them in contention.

 

[Big Red Slugs]

Not sold on Howard over Bynum just yet other than Bynum's injury damaged his worth. Bynum's offensive skill set is much better than Howard. You cannot resort to "hack a Bynum". Bynum was young enough that he certainly hasn't reached his peak.

Agree that the Laker organization ignored improving the quality of their guards. Some of it is Kobe because the Lakers depended on him so much. If Kobe and Howard stays, then trading Gasol and World Peace to improve their guards would put them in contention.

I'm the biggest fan of Drew I've ever met, trust me Howard is an upgrade.

And I don't see any sense in trading Gasol's $19M expiring contract for a couple of less-talented, longer-term contracts when we're clearly eyeing the summer of 2014.

The only option I see for the Lakers and Pau right now is, you either keep him and make another go at it next season or you amnesty him once the dust settles with Howard and D'Antoni.

I don't think trading him is in the cards, unless Kevin Love or something similar is available, which it's likely not.

 

[Retroram52]

Heat Shorts: Right now, Bynum's knees are so bad he may never play the game of basketball again much less walk so we may never see the end of the story on comparisons between Howard and Bynum.

BRS, I followed that discourse you had with Star before so I am familiar with the arguments presented. Regardless of what Howard does, we do need to get some speed in at least one of the guard positions and signing CP3 would accomplish that along with some pretty good play-making ability, sharp shooting, and offensive facilatation. Paul's defense is not too shabby either.

 

[DaBoltsNIsles]

No....it was defense.

They finished 6th in the league on offense at 102.2pts per game

On defense they were 22nd in the league giving up 101 pts per game.

That's because Nash can't guard ANYBODY. He's too slow. We saw how offensively challenged they are when Kobe is out of the lineup. They need secondary scoring. Like I said I hope Howard resigns. I don't think they can win with him, but that's just me.

 

[Thumper]

I think the LA organization thought bringing in Nash was going to help solve the guard problem. It didn't, unfortunately.

Yeah, a broken leg will do that to you...

 

[starbigd]

They dumped Fisher for Nash......bad idea. I think they probably would have been better off long term with Ramon Sessions. Not sure what guards are available, but the Lake Show has to address this sooner than later.

The front court is FINE with pau and any scrub you can put out there if you run the right offensive system.

 

[Hornsstampede2.0]

I disagree.

The NBA is always won with size. Traditional Point guards have been something less than irrelevent over the years. Magic Johnson was nearly 6'10inches tall and could play center.

The Lakers won 5 titles with complete mediocrity at PG. Jordan won six. The Spurs won at least 3 of their 4 when Parker was a 3rd option. Miami is on the precipice of a mini-dynasty with Mario Chalmers.

The NBA is all about SIZE, SIZE, SIZE, SIZE, and more SIZE. Big guards, Big SFs, and post players who arent stiffs.

The Lakers built the team correctly.

Their failing is that they did not have the right coaching to use that size.

 

[Retroram52]

I don't know Horns. When it comes to the backcourt, I think it is about speed. We have big guards but age has slowed many of them and some are just slow to begin with. Darrius Morris plays pretty good defense because he is big and fast but he is lost on offense. Blake is big but slow, Nash is the shortest we have but he is slow because of age.

StarbigD, the swap of Fisher for Nash was wrong for the fact we gave up two number ones for Nash and we did not improve on the speed end of things. Fisher was slowing down to the same fate as NAsh. Fisher plays better D but not by much. Fisher is riding the pines with OKC brought in primarily for his lockerroom leadership and championship experience but he has not played extensively even with Westbrook going down.

So, I'm not sure that is a comparison to fuel a remedy.

 

[Thumper]

I disagree.

The NBA is always won with size. Traditional Point guards have been something less than irrelevent over the years. Magic Johnson was nearly 6'10inches tall and could play center.

The Lakers won 5 titles with complete mediocrity at PG. Jordan won six. The Spurs won at least 3 of their 4 when Parker was a 3rd option. Miami is on the precipice of a mini-dynasty with Mario Chalmers.

The NBA is all about SIZE, SIZE, SIZE, SIZE, and more SIZE. Big guards, Big SFs, and post players who arent stiffs.

The Lakers built the team correctly.

Their failing is that they did not have the right coaching to use that size.

You're sure it wasn't an NBA record of injuries?

2013 Season Wrap Up Infographic | THE OFFICIAL SITE OF THE LOS ANGELES LAKERS

 

[Thumper]

Steve Nash & Kobe Bryant think that Mike D'Antoni is a good coach.

I guess I'll go with the basketball knowledge of Steve Nash & Kobe Bryant.

It's okay if some posters on here don't get it.

 

[lakersrule]

I disagree.

The NBA is always won with size. Traditional Point guards have been something less than irrelevent over the years. Magic Johnson was nearly 6'10inches tall and could play center.

The Lakers won 5 titles with complete mediocrity at PG. Jordan won six. The Spurs won at least 3 of their 4 when Parker was a 3rd option. Miami is on the precipice of a mini-dynasty with Mario Chalmers.

The NBA is all about SIZE, SIZE, SIZE, SIZE, and more SIZE. Big guards, Big SFs, and post players who arent stiffs.

The Lakers built the team correctly.

Their failing is that they did not have the right coaching to use that size.

I agree that size is important. I still prefer seeing an inside-out game revolving around a strong post presence. The Lakers have that and the coach was better at utilizing the Lakers strengths the second half of the season. They went 28-12 to finish the season.

It's not going to be a simple task for the front office to get younger and more athletic in the backcourt for next season like fans would like. The Lakers have very little to work with regarding signing free agents. Young athletic free agents aren't going to sign for veteran's minimums.

 

[Retroram52]

That might very well be the case Lakersrule. If D12 walks, Metta leaves (which may be a possibility) and Duhon is cut, we might have some cash to deal. Then if Kobe and Pau's deals are re-worked, perhaps some more cash may be made available to sign younger better players.