Is LeBron James better than Michael Jordan?

[tlance]

@tlance If the Cavs beat either GS or Houston would that put LeBron above Jordan in your book?



(I bet he says yes)

depends on what he does. His performance would have to be truly epic.

But it isn't going to happen.

1A and 1B

 

[tlance]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Bird/Duncan/Shaq. All arguable there

.. As of now anyways.

It may change.. It may not though. I would need to see 1-2 more champions/FMVP from Lebron. And probably 3 more FMVP/title for GOAT

LOL at Bird and his 3 titles ahead of LeBron.

And Bill Russell?

Didn't you just knock Chamberlain and Russell a couple weeks ago because they played in an era with a bunch of "6 foot white guys".

 

[DorianRo]

LOL at Bird and his 3 titles ahead of LeBron.

And Bill Russell?

Didn't you just knock Chamberlain and Russell a couple weeks ago because they played in an era with a bunch of "6 foot white guys".

Russell had pretty average numbers but all those championships can't be denied. Yea I got Bird ahead of Lebron still better peak though prime cut short due to back injuries and but no ridiculously horrid losing finals record

 

[tlance]

Russell had pretty average numbers but all those championships can't be denied. Yea I got Bird ahead of Lebron still better peak though prime cut short due to back injuries and but no ridiculously horrid losing finals record

Bird's peak was better by what metric?

LeBron doesn't have a peak because he dominates every single year. Even at age 33 after you said he was in "obvious decline".

 

[ericd7633]

Russell had pretty average numbers but all those championships can't be denied. Yea I got Bird ahead of Lebron still better peak though prime cut short due to back injuries and but no ridiculously horrid losing finals record

Holy shit this laughable. It's funny because Lebron's 3rd season in the NBA(when he should have been a junior in college) was better than any of Bird's seasons. And that was probably like his 8th/9th best season.

 

[trojanfan12]

I don't agree with what Shane said, because he would have beaten those same teams in the Finals if the Bulls were in the West too.

But the point is that it most defintely does not even out.

The better team almost always wins a 7 game series. Jordan was always in the better team throughout the 90s.

I disagree that it doesn't even out. Just because MJ was on the better team, doesn't change the fact that he faced tougher teams to get to the finals.

And perhaps MJ had better teams because he's the better player.

 

[trojanfan12]

But you are trying to argue that this is more or less a wash. It isn't.

Jordan faced tougher competition in the East than Lebron did. But Lebron faced tougher competition overall because the Western teams were so damn good. Lebron's Western competition dramatically better than MJ's Eastern competition.

It is a wash. If Lebron faced the level of competition that MJ did, he doesn't get to 8 straight finals.

If MJ faced the level of competition that Lebron has to get to the finals, who knows how many straight finals he'd have made it too?

I'll bet it would have been more than 8 though.

If MJ faced the level of competition in the Finals that Lebron has, he likely wouldn't be 6-0...but I bet he wouldn't have a losing record.

 

[larryjohn]

It is a wash. If Lebron faced the level of competition that MJ did, he doesn't get to 8 straight finals.

If MJ faced the level of competition that Lebron has to get to the finals, who knows how many straight finals he'd have made it too?
....

Easy to play that game. If Lebron had Pippen and Rodman and Bulls' players -- he might have made 8 straight.

For the first 7 seasons of Jordan's career -- he was criticized because he "didn't make the players around him better ... not like Magic & Bird did."

 

[trojanfan12]

Easy to play that game. If Lebron had Pippen and Rodman and Bulls' players -- he might have made 8 straight.

For the first 7 seasons of Jordan's career -- he was criticized because he "didn't make the players around him better ... not like Magic & Bird did."

lol. Lebron had D-Wade and Bosh. He also had Love and Kyrie.

Let's not pretend he's been doing this by himself.

 

[trojanfan12]

For the first 7 seasons of Jordan's career -- he was criticized because he "didn't make the players around him better ... not like Magic & Bird did."

That was before people figured out that he made the players around him better by his presence on the court.

He demanded so much attention from other teams that it left his teammates with open looks.

So, he didn't do it like Magic and Bird, but the end result was the same...guys getting open looks.

 

[tlance]

It is a wash. If Lebron faced the level of competition that MJ did, he doesn't get to 8 straight finals.

If MJ faced the level of competition that Lebron has to get to the finals, who knows how many straight finals he'd have made it too?

I'll bet it would have been more than 8 though.

If MJ faced the level of competition in the Finals that Lebron has, he likely wouldn't be 6-0...but I bet he wouldn't have a losing record.

That is just it.

Was the competition MJ faced really that much better?

The Knicks had Ewing and a bunch of tough minded role players
The Pacers had Reggie Miller, a past prime Chris Mullin, Marc Jackson and a bunch of tough role players
The Magic had a boatload of talent, but they were young and then Penny got hurt and Shaq left
The Bad Boy Pistons were done when MJ was ready to take over.

Who else was there? A bunch of good teams. None of them (aside from the Magic in '96) were serious threats. Knicks and Pacers took them to 7 games a couple times, but they were always heavy underdogs. Just like Houston is against GS.

The 90s were so overrated as an era.

 

[trojanfan12]

Was the competition MJ faced really that much better?

Than what Lebron has faced? Yes, it was that much better.

 

[GoldRusher]

 

[tlance]

Than what Lebron has faced? Yes, it was that much better.

LeBron faced the KG, Pierce, Allen, Celtics who were better than any single team MJ faced in the East.

The Pacers and Bulls were quite comparable to those Pacer and Knick teams from the MJ era. Not saying they were better, but not far off.

Since LeBron reached Cleveland, completion has been less, but it doesn't matter.

None of those East teams had much of a chance. That is the point.

 

[trojanfan12]

LeBron faced the KG, Pierce, Allen, Celtics who were better than any single team MJ faced in the East.

The Pacers and Bulls were quite comparable to those Pacer and Knick teams from the MJ era. Not saying they were better, but not far off.

Since LeBron reached Cleveland, completion has been less, but it doesn't matter.

None of those East teams had much of a chance. That is the point.

I disagree.

 

[larryjohn]

That was before people figured out that he made the players around him better by his presence on the court.
He demanded so much attention from other teams that if left his teammates with open looks.
So, he didn't do it like Magic and Bird, but the end result was the same...guys getting open looks.

Not at all. Phil Jackson's book talked about how MJ did not trust his teammates. (which was apparent during the late 80s) MJ also confirmed this stuff during interviews back in the day. Worse than that -- he would give them crap whenever they screwed up. MJ picked on Horace Grant a lot -- routinely made fun of him when he didn't produce. Instead MJ would try to do everything on his own.

Phil said the only way MJ would win championships with those guys was to trust them -- and continually pass to them -- even when they screwed up. The Bulls significantly improved when MJ learned to trust his teammates.

MJ clearly changed how to played and how he treated his teammates after the first 6-7 years.

Quote from the last week:
"When MJ was with the Bulls, we had a playoff game," Kerr began the story. "He kept trying to score and he was scoring, but we weren't getting anything going. Phil Jackson said 'Who's open?' He said, 'John Paxson.'"

 

[DorianRo]

That is just it.

Was the competition MJ faced really that much better?

The Knicks had Ewing and a bunch of tough minded role players
The Pacers had Reggie Miller, a past prime Chris Mullin, Marc Jackson and a bunch of tough role players
The Magic had a boatload of talent, but they were young and then Penny got hurt and Shaq left
The Bad Boy Pistons were done when MJ was ready to take over.

Who else was there? A bunch of good teams. None of them (aside from the Magic in '96) were serious threats. Knicks and Pacers took them to 7 games a couple times, but they were always heavy underdogs. Just like Houston is against GS.

The 90s were so overrated as an era.

All those teams are better than 95-99 percent of the teams Lebron has played en route to the finals.

The toughest team Lebron has faced in the East the last 8 years was probably the Bulls. And they were injured most of that time

 

[larryjohn]

That was before people figured out that he made the players around him better by his presence on the court.
He demanded so much attention from other teams that it left his teammates with open looks.
So, he didn't do it like Magic and Bird, but the end result was the same...guys getting open looks.

Stuff like this shows that MJ definitely changed ... it wasn't just perception of him changing.
Michael Jordan’s Transformation Contributed to His Success

 

[trojanfan12]

Not at all. Phil Jackson's book talked about how MJ did not trust his teammates. (which was apparent during the late 80s) MJ also confirmed this stuff during interviews back in the day. Worse than that -- he would give them crap whenever they screwed up. MJ picked on Horace Grant a lot -- routinely made fun of him when he didn't produce. Instead MJ would try to do everything on his own.

Phil said the only way MJ would win championships with those guys was to trust them -- and continually pass to them -- even when they screwed up. The Bulls significantly improved when MJ learned to trust his teammates.

MJ clearly changed how to played and how he treated his teammates after the first 6-7 years.

Quote from the last week:
"When MJ was with the Bulls, we had a playoff game," Kerr began the story. "He kept trying to score and he was scoring, but we weren't getting anything going. Phil Jackson said 'Who's open?' He said, 'John Paxson.'"

Uh, none of this disputes anything I said.

In fact, it proves me right. MJ started winning titles when he started treating his teammates better and trusting them.

In other words...his being on the court made his teammates better because the opponents were focused on him and guys got open looks.

Once he figured that out, he started winning titles.

 

[trojanfan12]

Stuff like this shows that MJ definitely changed ... it wasn't just perception of him changing.
Michael Jordan’s Transformation Contributed to His Success

Again...backs up what I said.