Has perception become reality?

[SoCalWizFan]

Sadly, we need something more than a great coach, because we have a terrible owner and a GM who seems middle of the road at best.

I truly don't understand some of the opinions voiced here about Allen. We are all under the belief that this is his first year as being the one who actually makes personnel decisions - correct? Prior to that time Shanahan made those decisions.

If that is a correct assumption then Allen has doesn't done too bad overall. In the draft he took Murphy & Breeland who appear to be assets on the defense & Breeland could be a steal. He took Long & Moses on the O-line & you really have to wait a few years to determine if they are good or not - most O-lineman don't develop overnight. Way is one of the bigger steals on STs. As for free agency - they did get Jackson, Roberts, Hatcher & McCoy. Some of the other pickups (Clark, Lavao) are questionable but were made somewhat out of desperation & relatively cheap.

I think you need to give this more time but overall it doesn't appear that he is doing that poorly. Am I wrong?

 

[j_y19]

I truly don't understand some of the opinions voiced here about Allen. We are all under the belief that this is his first year as being the one who actually makes personnel decisions - correct? Prior to that time Shanahan made those decisions.

If that is a correct assumption then Allen has doesn't done too bad overall. In the draft he took Murphy & Breeland who appear to be assets on the defense & Breeland could be a steal. He took Long & Moses on the O-line & you really have to wait a few years to determine if they are good or not - most O-lineman don't develop overnight. Way is one of the bigger steals on STs. As for free agency - they did get Jackson, Roberts, Hatcher & McCoy. Some of the other pickups (Clark, Lavao) are questionable but were made somewhat out of desperation & relatively cheap.

I think you need to give this more time but overall it doesn't appear that he is doing that poorly. Am I wrong?

No, you are not wrong. Just like its too early to tell if Gruden will pan out or the young OL, Allen also deserves a couple of years. This off season was productive. don't forget about the young WR (his name escapes me right now) or Silas Redd, both taken late and both showing real promise. He also handled our own FAs with a deft hand. he got moss, Riley and DHall back and signed for a song. He didn't panic. I see no reason why some are bad mouthing him so early.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Has perception become reality?

No. It's always been.

 

[KickSaveDave]

I truly don't understand some of the opinions voiced here about Allen. We are all under the belief that this is his first year as being the one who actually makes personnel decisions - correct? Prior to that time Shanahan made those decisions.

If that is a correct assumption then Allen has doesn't done too bad overall. In the draft he took Murphy & Breeland who appear to be assets on the defense & Breeland could be a steal. He took Long & Moses on the O-line & you really have to wait a few years to determine if they are good or not - most O-lineman don't develop overnight. Way is one of the bigger steals on STs. As for free agency - they did get Jackson, Roberts, Hatcher & McCoy. Some of the other pickups (Clark, Lavao) are questionable but were made somewhat out of desperation & relatively cheap.

I think you need to give this more time but overall it doesn't appear that he is doing that poorly. Am I wrong?

I'm still not clear where we get the idea that becuase Shanny had final say, that Allen was sitting around watching Shanny do all the scouting, make all the decisions, run the front office. My understanding is that Allen ran the front office because he had the title of General Manager, and if him and Shanny didn't agree on something, Shanny had final say. Thats not the same as saying Shanny made all the player decisions and Allen made none.

 

[skinsdad62]

I'm still not clear where we get the idea that becuase Shanny had final say, that Allen was sitting around watching Shanny do all the scouting, make all the decisions, run the front office. My understanding is that Allen ran the front office because he had the title of General Manager, and if him and Shanny didn't agree on something, Shanny had final say. Thats not the same as saying Shanny made all the player decisions and Allen made none.

it was called his contract . it was in his contract . he had control of ALL football operations the final decisions were his

allen and him could have agreed on things for sure but shanny is where the buck stops . if he didnt like it he could nix it hence he had control not allen

he was VP of football operations as well as HC

allen mostly dealt with the cap and contracts

allen himself said this year he would be in charge of all football operations certainly meaning he wasnt in the past

 

[SoCalWizFan]

it was called his contract . it was in his contract . he had control of ALL football operations the final decisions were his

allen and him could have agreed on things for sure but shanny is where the buck stops . if he didnt like it he could nix it hence he had control not allen

he was VP of football operations as well as HC

allen mostly dealt with the cap and contracts

allen himself said this year he would be in charge of all football operations certainly meaning he wasnt in the past

Thank you! Nobody said that Allen was sitting around doing nothing, but since he had did not have the final say-so you can't really pin the previous moves on him - this should be common knowledge.

However - it doesn't matter. Some folks here are going to have the same take regardless & look for the easy way out. They believe that everything can be fixed overnight & feel that the solution is in getting rid of people which is ridiculous. Why do people always ignore the fact that one of the Redskins biggest issues in the past is the lack of continuity & lack of patience.

Some folks here are no better than Snyder - they want to make kneejerk moves whenever possible. Fire the coach - fire the GM - get rid of entire O-line. Get serious. Give a little time for Gruden, Allen, the rookies, etc (I will steer clear of the QB situation).

Again - I think some of you are off base in regards to Allen & need to give the guy a little time (for better or worse).

HTTR

 

[KickSaveDave]

it was called his contract . it was in his contract . he had control of ALL football operations the final decisions were his

allen and him could have agreed on things for sure but shanny is where the buck stops . if he didnt like it he could nix it hence he had control not allen

he was VP of football operations as well as HC

allen mostly dealt with the cap and contracts

allen himself said this year he would be in charge of all football operations certainly meaning he wasnt in the past

Sigh, let me break it down a little differently. Dan Snyder has final say on every single thing to do with every aspect of the Washington Redskins. That doesn't automatically mean he is out there scouting, grading and ranking players, and then deciding which ones to pursue. He still has to delegate many of those responsibilities to his subordinates.

Mike Shanahan had in his contract that he had final control over Football Operations, the final decisions were his. That still also doesn't mean that he was the one scouting, grading and determining all the players to pursue - both from a high and low level free agent standpoint to a high and low round draft pick standpoint. Mike still had to delegate many of those responsibilities to his subordinates. He had final say, thats not being disputed. But he didn't do all the work of the front office, the team that Bruce Allen assembled and managed did all that work.

There is no plausible scenario where Bruce Allen's front office staff scouted, graded and ranked all the players to pursue very well, and then Mike Shanahan comes in and re-arranges that draft board to his liking without taking all that advice and feedback from the staff into consideration. Shanny wasn't doing this by himself, it was done as a team and Bruce was part of that team. There is also essentially no published reports of Shanny and Bruce disagreeing about anything, so effectively Bruce and Shanny were in agreement about most stuff. Now, either they kept all their disagreements so secret that none of them ever leaked out, or they were actually in agreement with each other. Either Bruce was such a wallflower that he rubber stamped everything Shanny wanted, or he kept his disapproval of Mike's decisions top secret - and for an organization that can't keep its players from tweeting anything I find that hard to believe.

In the end, I see little evidence that the next 4 years under Bruce is going to significantly different than the last 4 years with Bruce. Sure, it could be, and obviously he's going to stick for a while and prove himself... but remember, this isn't his first GM job, its basically his 3rd.


I really can't find much resume info for his time with the Raiders, because Al Davis was the real GM there. Allen's title with Oakland was "Senior Assistant to Al Davis". Allen was there from 1995-2004. The results there were obviously mixed. Several losing seasons, then Jon Gruden was hired and they won 3 straight division titles, Gruden left and they had SB loss, before reverting back to garbage in 2003 and 2004. Right before Allen left the Raiders, they hired Norv Turner to replace Bill Callahan. Who knows if Allen endorsed that move or not, but he quit a week later and went to join Gruden with the Bucs, where they again had mixed results but no playoff success together. He won Executive of the Year award with the Raiders, but that was primarily for his cap management.

Here is his resume in Tampa Bay. He had final say in Tampa. Bruce inherited the SB winning team that Gruden also inherited from Dungy. Together they had 2 winning seasons and 3 losing seasons. His player record, in the link above, is hardly great. Not really a record to make me confident he's the guy.

We really have no other choice but to take it on faith that, for the first time in his life, Allen can actually build a winner and maintain it. He didn't consistently win in Oakland or Tampa, or his first four years here. Until I see any evidence to the contrary, I'm skeptical that he's got what it takes to win here.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

Dave,

Being skeptical about Allen (or Gruden for that matter) is fine. I am only asking that they give him through at least next season. I believe that is fair & the way to proceed given the clean house strategy of this team in the past.

What you don't mention is that Shanahan was a control freak & yes he imposed final say-so on most/all decisions including on the defense where he was clueless. Also - many are on record as stating that Snyder was not involved in these decisions except perhaps for approving the $$ - no documented reports have proved otherwise. That is why I always advocate to never, ever hire an ex-SB winning coach if he also demands that he be a GM or pseudo-GM. Too many horror stories with this type of setup.

Again - regardless - give Allen at least one more year since the past offseason was not that bad.

 

[skinsdad62]

Sigh, let me break it down a little differently. Dan Snyder has final say on every single thing to do with every aspect of the Washington Redskins. That doesn't automatically mean he is out there scouting, grading and ranking players, and then deciding which ones to pursue. He still has to delegate many of those responsibilities to his subordinates.

Mike Shanahan had in his contract that he had final control over Football Operations, the final decisions were his. That still also doesn't mean that he was the one scouting, grading and determining all the players to pursue - both from a high and low level free agent standpoint to a high and low round draft pick standpoint. Mike still had to delegate many of those responsibilities to his subordinates. He had final say, thats not being disputed. But he didn't do all the work of the front office, the team that Bruce Allen assembled and managed did all that work.

There is no plausible scenario where Bruce Allen's front office staff scouted, graded and ranked all the players to pursue very well, and then Mike Shanahan comes in and re-arranges that draft board to his liking without taking all that advice and feedback from the staff into consideration. Shanny wasn't doing this by himself, it was done as a team and Bruce was part of that team. There is also essentially no published reports of Shanny and Bruce disagreeing about anything, so effectively Bruce and Shanny were in agreement about most stuff. Now, either they kept all their disagreements so secret that none of them ever leaked out, or they were actually in agreement with each other. Either Bruce was such a wallflower that he rubber stamped everything Shanny wanted, or he kept his disapproval of Mike's decisions top secret - and for an organization that can't keep its players from tweeting anything I find that hard to believe.

In the end, I see little evidence that the next 4 years under Bruce is going to significantly different than the last 4 years with Bruce. Sure, it could be, and obviously he's going to stick for a while and prove himself... but remember, this isn't his first GM job, its basically his 3rd.


I really can't find much resume info for his time with the Raiders, because Al Davis was the real GM there. Allen's title with Oakland was "Senior Assistant to Al Davis". Allen was there from 1995-2004. The results there were obviously mixed. Several losing seasons, then Jon Gruden was hired and they won 3 straight division titles, Gruden left and they had SB loss, before reverting back to garbage in 2003 and 2004. Right before Allen left the Raiders, they hired Norv Turner to replace Bill Callahan. Who knows if Allen endorsed that move or not, but he quit a week later and went to join Gruden with the Bucs, where they again had mixed results but no playoff success together. He won Executive of the Year award with the Raiders, but that was primarily for his cap management.

Here is his resume in Tampa Bay. He had final say in Tampa. Bruce inherited the SB winning team that Gruden also inherited from Dungy. Together they had 2 winning seasons and 3 losing seasons. His player record, in the link above, is hardly great. Not really a record to make me confident he's the guy.

We really have no other choice but to take it on faith that, for the first time in his life, Allen can actually build a winner and maintain it. He didn't consistently win in Oakland or Tampa, or his first four years here. Until I see any evidence to the contrary, I'm skeptical that he's got what it takes to win here.

huuh sigh , bottom line is shanny had final say and ultimately you cant judge a guys on decisions he didnt have FINAL say on

that doesnt mean allen isnt garbage what i am saying is so far in year one they made some good draft picks and good free agent picks ups .

 

[KickSaveDave]

huuh sigh , bottom line is shanny had final say and ultimately you cant judge a guys on decisions he didnt have FINAL say on

that doesnt mean allen isnt garbage what i am saying is so far in year one they made some good draft picks and good free agent picks ups .

And I'm not saying he's garbage either... I just don't have a lot of confidence that he can overcome the stink that is Dan Snyder's tenure. He seems like a middle of the road NFL GM to me so far, based on his entire career body of work.

Obviously I have no say in how long he stays, and I imagine he'll be here a long time.

 

[skinsdad62]

And I'm not saying he's garbage either... I just don't have a lot of confidence that he can overcome the stink that is Dan Snyder's tenure. He seems like a middle of the road NFL GM to me so far, based on his entire career body of work.

Obviously I have no say in how long he stays, and I imagine he'll be here a long time.

well dave , i like you and you are a great poster , but you are in for about 40 years more of distraught because snyder isnt going anywhere

harping about it wont change it

the only thing you can do is hope allen can do it