Giants trade Jonathan Sanchez to Royals

[calsnowskier]

Melky Cabrera Stats - Kansas City Royals - ESPN

If Melky can play average to above average defense and bat around .275 with 12 - 15 homers and 15 - 20 steals, I'll be happy with this trade. May be a win/win trade?

Like Cal alluded to, it's a little scary "buying high", but then again, maybe last year was the real Melky. Regardless, hopefully Melky will fit in nicely here.

Good luck Durty; I wish you well in KC.....and thank you, thank you, thank you for 2010 (especially game 162).

I will cheer Durty in whatever uni he wears (as long the "blue" stays royal, and not another shade). The No-No, the Ring, 162, and the Fight are all lasting memories that I share with him and he has a perma-place in my Giants-Heart...

 

[CameronFrye]

A couple of thoughts as I digest the info:

1. I was always a Melky fan, and was surprised when he was non-tendered last year. I thought we should have made a play for him. He came up with Cano, and I thought at the time "fucking Yankees...all they need is two more studs from the minors."
2. We save about $1MM in payroll as Melky will get around $4MM and Durty would have gotten $5, so there's that. We also get to look at him for a year and decide if we want to keep him long term.
3. He's got good OBP skills, but is only an average defender. Torres will be brought back almost for sure now. OTOH, goodbye Boss.
4. If the org, known for developing pitchers, is willing to let Durty go, then I'm fairly satisfied he's not going to put up 2.0 WAR. I think Melky will.

It's not a HUGE move, but it does free up a little cash for Beltran and obviates the need for Breakfast Cereal -- who I never wanted anyway.

I'm good with this trade.

2011 - 33 BB in 706 PA
2010 - 42 walkis in 509 PA
2009 - 43 walks in 540 PA
2008 - 29 walks in 453 PA

The guy has horrible OBP skills.

The Giants sold low on Sanchez and bought high on a guy who had a career year that he shows no signs of being able to duplicate. What's the point of trading for Andres Torres slightly better brother when we already have Torres? If Torres puts up numbers halfway between 2010 and 2011, the Giants are better off keeping Sanchez.

To give up another prospect in the deal just makes it even worse. Horrible deal IMO.

 

[Heathbar012]

2011 - 33 BB in 706 PA
2010 - 42 walkis in 509 PA
2009 - 43 walks in 540 PA
2008 - 29 walks in 453 PA

The guy has horrible OBP skills.

The Giants sold low on Sanchez and bought high on a guy who had a career year that he shows no signs of being able to duplicate. What's the point of trading for Andres Torres slightly better brother when we already have Torres? If Torres puts up numbers halfway between 2010 and 2011, the Giants are better off keeping Sanchez.

To give up another prospect in the deal just makes it even worse. Horrible deal IMO.

I worry more about career years in hitter-friendly parks or after the age of 30. I think Melky's best baseball is still very much ahead of him. I fear that Durty's best baseball might never materialize. If it does, this will obviously be a bad trade. I think that risk is necessary. Nothing left to do now, but hope Crick develops quicker than expected to help the SP depth, and we'll see how things develop when the Giants are on the clock this June.

 

[calsnowskier]

I worry more about career years in hitter-friendly parks or after the age of 30. I think Melky's best baseball is still very much ahead of him. I fear that Durty's best baseball might never materialize. If it does, this will obviously be a bad trade. I think that risk is necessary. Nothing left to do now, but hope Crick develops quicker than expected to help the SP depth, and we'll see how things develop when the Giants are on the clock this June.

Drafting pitchers is boring in the draft, kinda like drafting offensive line and kickers. But they are absolutely critical in building a team, and I hope that they concentrate on the SPs in the '12 draft. 3-4 years of ignoring the position has left the cupboard bare.

 

[CameronFrye]

I worry more about career years in hitter-friendly parks or after the age of 30. I think Melky's best baseball is still very much ahead of him. I fear that Durty's best baseball might never materialize. If it does, this will obviously be a bad trade. I think that risk is necessary. Nothing left to do now, but hope Crick develops quicker than expected to help the SP depth, and we'll see how things develop when the Giants are on the clock this June.

The guy is going from the 13th most hitter-friendly park in the bigs to the 30th. He has a career SLG of .398. In his career, he's had only 2 seasons of double-digit HR and only two where he drove in at least 70 runs. His 2011 total of 102 runs is 28 more than his previous career best.

The guy just screams AVERAGE. For what it took to get him, I would have rather not.

 

[SFGRTB]

The guy is going from the 13th most hitter-friendly park in the bigs to the 30th. He has a career SLG of .398. In his career, he's had only 2 seasons of double-digit HR and only two where he drove in at least 70 runs. His 2011 total of 102 runs is 28 more than his previous career best.

The guy just screams AVERAGE. For what it took to get him, I would have rather not.

Where's this 13th most hitter friendly park come from? The Giants yard is a very fair ballpark for everything except for homers. Melky had 44 doubles last year, I could expect him to approach that next year.

 

[msgkings322]

I will cheer Durty in whatever uni he wears (as long the "blue" stays royal, and not another shade). The No-No, the Ring, 162, and the Fight are all lasting memories that I share with him and he has a perma-place in my Giants-Heart...

Agreed, but does Uribe get the same love from you? I know he's a Doyer but...

 

[msgkings322]

2011 - 33 BB in 706 PA
2010 - 42 walkis in 509 PA
2009 - 43 walks in 540 PA
2008 - 29 walks in 453 PA

The guy has horrible OBP skills.

The Giants sold low on Sanchez and bought high on a guy who had a career year that he shows no signs of being able to duplicate. What's the point of trading for Andres Torres slightly better brother when we already have Torres? If Torres puts up numbers halfway between 2010 and 2011, the Giants are better off keeping Sanchez.

To give up another prospect in the deal just makes it even worse. Horrible deal IMO.

Cam, did you see my post above? Unless you are getting a total stud and overpaying him or dealing a bust and getting nothing back, you are always possibly buying high or selling low. There are no locks.

What would have been your (realistic) alternatives to improve CF and/or get value for Sanchez? Hoping 2010 Torres comes back doesn't cut it.

 

[Heathbar012]

The guy is going from the 13th most hitter-friendly park in the bigs to the 30th. He has a career SLG of .398. In his career, he's had only 2 seasons of double-digit HR and only two where he drove in at least 70 runs. His 2011 total of 102 runs is 28 more than his previous career best.

The guy just screams AVERAGE. For what it took to get him, I would have rather not.

I'm not worried about the home runs. 44 doubles with an .809 OPS last year. Even if that drops to .750 and 35, I know that will be a full 50 points and 10 doubles higher (at least) than Torres. Exactly half-way between 2010 and 2011 leaves Torres with a .733 OPS and 34 doubles. I don't think he is even capable of that. I'm for signing him as a fourth-outfielder, but this move was necessary. Unfortunately, Grady Sizemore is made of glass, but if this trade didn't free-up enough money for Beltran, Sabes might still be in his market. LF might be a safer place for Melky, anyway.

I agree that the Giants gave up a lot of potential, but Cabrera also has the potential to have an OPS higher than .750, consistently (.752 in '06 and '09). .775 with a healthy and fit Posey, Franchez, Pandoval and (fingers-crossed) Beltran would be a vast improvement in total team runs. We may just have to agree to disagree, but Torres' 2010 was definitely more of a mirage than Cabrera's 2011.

 

[SFGRTB]

The guy is going from the 13th most hitter-friendly park in the bigs to the 30th. He has a career SLG of .398. In his career, he's had only 2 seasons of double-digit HR and only two where he drove in at least 70 runs. His 2011 total of 102 runs is 28 more than his previous career best.

The guy just screams AVERAGE. For what it took to get him, I would have rather not.

11. Kauffman Stadium (Kansas City Royals): This is where we drop into more neutral territory, and unlike Yankee Stadium, which was great for homers but average at best for everything else, Kauffman was the exact opposite, great for any hit within the ballpark but a weak venue for power hitters. Expansive power alleys are presumably responsible, but that does help boost doubles and triples totals.

.....

15. AT&T Park (San Francisco Giants): To think there was a time when Comerica and AT&T were extreme pitchers' parks that suppressed home run totals. AT&T Park still reins in home runs with the best of them, especially those hit by left-handers (88 homer index from 2007 to '09), but for the most part it's a neutral venue.


Coors Field, Petco Park top list of hitter- and pitcher-friendly stadiums - Fantasy Baseball - ESPN

Granted, that was 2 years ago but the dimensions or the air haven't changed since then.

Also of note, 2 of the top 3 hitters parks are in our division and the Dodgers rank 24th and Pads rank last. Giants rank dead center. Park factor aren't a a big determining factor, if anything, they go into his favor.

 

[CameronFrye]

Cam, did you see my post above? Unless you are getting a total stud and overpaying him or dealing a bust and getting nothing back, you are always possibly buying high or selling low. There are no locks.

What would have been your (realistic) alternatives to improve CF and/or get value for Sanchez? Hoping 2010 Torres comes back doesn't cut it.

Well I hate to break the news to you, but by trading for Melky, you are also hoping the 2010 Torres comes back because that's what they just got. Cabrera is just as likely to put up 2010 numbers (4 HR, 42 RBI, .255/.317/.354) than he is to put up anything remotely resembling his 2011 stats. The guy has NEVER put together back-to-back solid seasons in the bigs.

As for my suggestions, I would have much preferred to land Crisp via the FA market and keep Sanchez. Durty had the worst 2011 he could have possibly had. If SF keeps him and puts him at the back of the rotation (Timmeh, Cain, Bum, Vogelsong, Sanchez), he would likely face less pressure. If he gets off to a halfway decent start, he has MUCH more trade value. If he goes in the shitter again, his trade value would have been no lower than it was last night.

 

[CameronFrye]

11. Kauffman Stadium (Kansas City Royals): This is where we drop into more neutral territory, and unlike Yankee Stadium, which was great for homers but average at best for everything else, Kauffman was the exact opposite, great for any hit within the ballpark but a weak venue for power hitters. Expansive power alleys are presumably responsible, but that does help boost doubles and triples totals.

.....

15. AT&T Park (San Francisco Giants): To think there was a time when Comerica and AT&T were extreme pitchers' parks that suppressed home run totals. AT&T Park still reins in home runs with the best of them, especially those hit by left-handers (88 homer index from 2007 to '09), but for the most part it's a neutral venue.


Coors Field, Petco Park top list of hitter- and pitcher-friendly stadiums - Fantasy Baseball - ESPN

Granted, that was 2 years ago but the dimensions or the air haven't changed since then.

Also of note, 2 of the top 3 hitters parks are in our division and the Dodgers rank 24th and Pads rank last. Giants rank dead center. Park factor aren't a a big determining factor, if anything, they go into his favor.

Those rankings are just some guy's opinion when it comes to fantasy ball player relevance.


Here are the numbers.

 

[msgkings322]

Well I hate to break the news to you, but by trading for Melky, you are also hoping the 2010 Torres comes back because that's what they just got. Cabrera is just as likely to put up 2010 numbers (4 HR, 42 RBI, .255/.317/.354) than he is to put up anything remotely resembling his 2011 stats. The guy has NEVER put together back-to-back solid seasons in the bigs.

As for my suggestions, I would have much preferred to land Crisp via the FA market and keep Sanchez. Durty had the worst 2011 he could have possibly had. If SF keeps him and puts him at the back of the rotation (Timmeh, Cain, Bum, Vogelsong, Sanchez), he would likely face less pressure. If he gets off to a halfway decent start, he has MUCH more trade value. If he goes in the shitter again, his trade value would have been no lower than it was last night.

Fair enough, but I see Cabrera as > than Crisp, so reasonable people are disagreeing here. Sabean made a move, we'll see. He's got a decent (but not perfect) track record.

 

[CameronFrye]

Fair enough, but I see Cabrera as > than Crisp, so reasonable people are disagreeing here. Sabean made a move, we'll see. He's got a decent (but not perfect) track record.

Please understand that I WANT to be wrong. I will cheer for Melky as hard as I cheer for any member of the Giants. I would love to revisit this thread in June or July and have people tell me what an ass I was for not believing that Melky had finally come into his own.

But just a cursory glance at the stats say that it's not going to happen.

 

[msgkings322]

Please understand that I WANT to be wrong. I will cheer for Melky as hard as I cheer for any member of the Giants. I would love to revisit this thread in June or July and have people tell me what an ass I was for not believing that Melky had finally come into his own.

But just a cursory glance at the stats say that it's not going to happen.

Nobody knows nuthin'.

But Sabean knows >>>> nuthin' than all of us.

Just sayin'.

I completely agree this might not work but the bolded above is too confident for the reality of baseball.

 

[CameronFrye]

Baggarly kissing ass again

My instant reaction? The Giants made a nice move.

Sanchez misses bats as well as anyone, he has great stuff and he’ll forever be a breakout candidate. But he led the NL in walks in 2010 and then his walk rate went up this past season. He wasn’t a picnic for the coaching staff to deal with, and while he was on disabled-list limbo with mild elbow tendinitis, he told me he felt underappreciated by the organization. I know those comments did not go over well in the front office. All of that added up to a non-tender move, especially after the Giants basically spent Sanchez’s money on lefties Javier Lopez and Jeremy Affeldt.

Still, they were able to turn Sanchez into Cabrera, and sure, he is neither a premium defender nor does he walk enough for a leadoff man. But he is coming off a 200-hit, 100-run season and he’s entering the prime of his career. The Giants were able to sell low and buy high, all while plugging in a player at a position of need and saving a few bucks. They also found a way to get a center fielder without blocking top prospect Gary Brown.

Of course, if the Giants don’t get another No.5 starter, Barry Zito’s regression continues and Sanchez figures it all out in the AL Central, there will be plenty of room for second-guessers.

 

[iHATEdodgers]

My first thought about this trade was "Shit that means fucking Zito is our #5" that's probably not really the desired initial reaction to a trade.

I do not expect him to hit over .300 for us or display any power, but maybe his kind of hitting will meld in well with our park. Unlike say a Rowand. I don't know much about him really hopefully he's a guy who sprays the ball around and hits the gaps.

He doesn't have base stealing speed and he doesn't have a good OBP so I'm not exactly elated that he might be our new leadoff hitter.

Damn Durty is gone! I'm kinda bummed really, it's nice to have that kind of starter in your back pocket in the 5th spot. And who knows if Vogelsong was a flash in the pan. Suddenly our rotation has no depth which makes me a bit nervous since we are still built around pitching.

Edit:

I forgot to mention that I am very pleased that Cabrera is 27 and entering what hopes to be the best part of his career, if he were 33 I'd be down on this trade for sure.

 

[Heathbar012]

I was in the CoCo camp at the beginning of the year. His speed is undeniable and desirable. It would be magical to see him knock one into Triples' Alley as a Giant. Unfortunately, as the off-season has gone on, the negatives associated with his arm and late breaks coupled with being over 30 with an OBP of .314 last year had me wondering about other alternatives.

This trade never occurred to me, but I think it is positive. Obviously, there is never a trade without negatives. And if there were, it would certainly be impossible to tell that at this particular juncture. However, even though Melky has some of the same defensive deficiencies as CoCo (without Crisp's recovery speed), he at least seems to be on the up-swing at 27, with more potential for a little bit of pop. Plus, this freed up $1 million without a need to go get another starter, immediately.

 

[CameronFrye]

THIS has to be encouraging

Just got off the conference call with Brian Sabean, Bruce Bochy and Melky Cabrera about the Cabrera/Jonathan Sanchez deal. Here are the highlights:

Sabean can’t yet say where Cabrera will bat in the lineup, what position he’ll play, how this will affect other trades or free-agent pursuits, and who will replace Sanchez in the rotation. He said he needs to reconvene with manager Bruce Bochy, who just returned from Taiwan, and come up with an updated plan ahead of next week’s GM meetings in Milwaukee.

This had better be Sabean deferring the positional duties to Bochy and staying out of the on-field duties. If the Giants seriously consider batting Cabrera ANYWHERE other than leadoff and playing him anywhere else other than CF, Sabean needs to be fired immediately.

 

[CameronFrye]

Nobody knows nuthin'.

But Sabean knows >>>> nuthin' than all of us.

Just sayin'.

I completely agree this might not work but the bolded above is too confident for the reality of baseball.

You give Sabean WAAAAAYYY too much credit.