Game Thread: Titans at Broncos

[cdumler7]

WalkerBoh I do realize that and that is why it was only a slight negative not a huge concern as some might make it out to be. We gave up what essentially was 3 big plays on defense and 1 on Special Teams. Unfortunately all of those lead to touchdowns for the Titans. Otherwise they contained them just pretty darn well. 126 of those 254 yards came on 3 plays by their offense so yes our defense even with all of the injuries and substitutions did a very good job. Just a few mental lapses with what in my opinion 2 of those were on Omar Bolden (completely out of position on the 28 yard run should have held it closer to about a 10 yard run and then on the 41 yard touchdown pass he decided to help out on the guy that was already double covered instead of the deep middle like he was supposed to be). I don't think Bolden will be counted on much in the playoffs unless there are quite a few more injuries. Nacho would have at least stopped the run play and I like to think Moore learning from his mistake last year would not have let the deep throw over the middle happen.


Right now there is no reason to panic with how this defense has been playing. Injuries and a few miscommunications seem to be a problem but then again like I said in my OP some of that can be cleaned up with just having the starters on the field together. Hopefully come playoff time we can actually see Champ, DRC, Ihenacho, and maybe even Moore all on the field at the same time. I don't see those guys making the couple of mistakes that we saw yesterday that allowed the 3 big plays on defense.

 

[Broncos6482]

Earlier in the year when I mentioned how many yards Denver's defense was giving up everyone told me it was about points now all of a sudden its about yards. Which one is it? Denver gave up 28 points and yes bad special teams had something to do with one of the scores but no way around it 28 points is to much. Even Tom Jackson mentioned last night the defense must get better. The defense and special teams have to get betterand I believe they will. Still Denver is the team to beat in the AFC. I see a Super Bowl appearence in the near future.

It's points. Denver's d had a good second half yesterday, but that first half was brutal. Not sure what was going on with all of the personnel changes, but the defense looks extremely susceptible right now. It's a good thing they have a record breaking offense to back them up.

 

[WalkerBoh]

Earlier in the year when I mentioned how many yards Denver's defense was giving up everyone told me it was about points now all of a sudden its about yards. Which one is it? Denver gave up 28 points and yes bad special teams had something to do with one of the scores but no way around it 28 points is to much. Even Tom Jackson mentioned last night the defense must get better. The defense and special teams have to get betterand I believe they will. Still Denver is the team to beat in the AFC. I see a Super Bowl appearence in the near future.

Ummm.... I was just pointing out our defense had a pretty decent game yesterday. The earlier argument wasn't about points or yards, but about overall health of our defense, and when a lot of those points and yards were allowed. Garbage yards and garbage points only help fantasy teams. I don't use them to judge a defense with. There really is no "black and white", only shades of grey.

Now, traditionally a defense that limits yards tends to be more consistent than a "bend but don't break" defense that allows more yardage but finds a way to limit points. Usually a bend-but-don't-break will eventually break, splinter, and shatter against an accomplished offense with multiple weapons. On the other hand, a team that limits yards, will eventually also limit points. You may be able to grind out a low scoring win against such a defense, or may get lucky early on a big play or two, only to sputter near the end of the game. Titans got lucky early on, and converted that luck into points. When their luck ran out, they got ran over.

As for allowing 28 points, it's only considered "too much" if Denver only manages to score 27 or less. Kinda hard to say allowing 28 points was "too much" when the Titans still got beat by 23 points.

 

[cdumler7]

Earlier in the year when I mentioned how many yards Denver's defense was giving up everyone told me it was about points now all of a sudden its about yards. Which one is it? Denver gave up 28 points and yes bad special teams had something to do with one of the scores but no way around it 28 points is to much. Even Tom Jackson mentioned last night the defense must get better. The defense and special teams have to get betterand I believe they will. Still Denver is the team to beat in the AFC. I see a Super Bowl appearence in the near future.

Points are obviously the most important part of the game. The fact that the defense isn't giving up as many yards though is promising and they have times in games where the defense looks very stout. Yes they gave up 21 quick points to start off the game but only allowed 7 points in the 2nd half. This is with DRC, Ihenacho, Woodyard, Champ, Moore, and Wolfe all either sitting out a big chunk of this game or the whole game. That is a lot of star power that is missing from the field that not only improves the defense but also special teams in then those back ups can spend a lot more time on Special Teams.

 

[WalkerBoh]

It's points. Denver's d had a good second half yesterday, but that first half was brutal. Not sure what was going on with all of the personnel changes, but the defense looks extremely susceptible right now. It's a good thing they have a record breaking offense to back them up.

I'd hardly call allowing 172 yards passing and 96 yards rushing, including 2 sacks for 14 yards, an INT and a forced fumble recovery "susceptible." As I said earlier, Titans got lucky on a few plays, and converted that luck into points. Their luck ran out, and Denver rolled over them.

 

[cdumler7]

I'd hardly call allowing 172 yards passing and 96 yards rushing, including 2 sacks for 14 yards, an INT and a forced fumble recovery "susceptible." As I said earlier, Titans got lucky on a few plays, and converted that luck into points. Their luck ran out, and Denver rolled over them.

Plus with the 2 turnovers the Broncos turned that into 14 points for the offense. The Broncos play a very aggressive defense (which with all the injuries can lead to giving up some major plays) which results in some game changing plays both ways. If we are going to get after the Broncos defense for allowing big plays then we need to recognize that they also had some game changing plays in the positive for us as well.

 

[Broncos6482]

I'd hardly call allowing 172 yards passing and 96 yards rushing, including 2 sacks for 14 yards, an INT and a forced fumble recovery "susceptible." As I said earlier, Titans got lucky on a few plays, and converted that luck into points. Their luck ran out, and Denver rolled over them.

You can call it luck, I'll say that Denver's secondary is vulnerable and the defense is susceptible to giving up big plays. We've seen it time and time again all season; opposing offenses getting big plays against us. If I recall correctly that's what got us beat in the playoffs last season, too.

As I said, the defense had a good second half yesterday, but if you're satisfied with that defensive performance yesterday I think you're standards are way too low.

 

[iknowftbll]

It should be a concern that over the course of the season teams have found ways to consistently get 24+ points on the Broncos. But there are a lot of reasons these numbers, while concerning, are also somewhat misleading.

For starters, the era where a defense holds total points against in the 200s is coming to a close. There are half a dozen teams that may pull it offtjis season, but only a couple locks. The truth is the average number of points scored in a game is trending up right now. Any team that can hold an opponent to 20 ppg over the course of a season is doing really good. Defenses that are allowing 23-24 ppg are considered decent in this era of football. 24 ppg for a whole season is 384 points! In this regard, the Broncos are not woefully off the mark on that side of the ball. They are below average, but it is not the end of our Super Bowl hopes.

Across the afc, the average points against is 23.7. The Broncos points against is 26.5, less than a FG difference. Now it happens that when you isolate the playoff contenders the picture I'd a little worse. But even then, the difference is not so pronounced. The 7 playoff contenders are averaging 21.5 points against per game. The Broncos below this average by less than a TD.

And there are some other factors to consider.

For the season I am counting 52 garbage time points. This may vary depending on how one defines garbage time. I keep it simple: it's a garbage time score if it was made when there was virtually no chance of the team trailing to win the game. So I count 10 against the Ravens, 7 against the Giants, 14 against the Raiders, 7 against the Eagles, 7 against the Chiefs in Denver, and 7 against the Chargers. These are part of the game, but they skew the collective body of work. Filter them out and you have a unit allowing 22.5 ppg in meaningful playing time.

The other big one is points off of turnovers. I am not goin to filter them out because I believe they are a more integral part of the game than garbage time scores. The defense has been left in some bad spots by ST and offensive turnovers. In fact, without even counting the meltdown to the Pats (a clear outlier) the Broncos have given up 70 points off of turnovers. Some of this has been off of defensive scores and can't really be held against our defense.

I did expect our defense to look better than it has. But I also think it's a lot better than it looks. Remember the defenses of 2007 and 2008? How about 2010? Those were bad defenses. I don't get a feeling of futility with this defense as I did with those. This group has the potential to really put it together for a playoff run. In most games they have been able to force several consecutive punts or force turnovers over a crucial stretch of game. This period in the game usually corresponds to the Broncos pulling away from an opponnent.

Yesterday was a bit of an anomaly on defense. Without any garbage time or points off of turnovers the Titans got a solid 28 points. And they did it with minimal offensive production. But the defense still made plays that made the difference in that game, so there are still a lot of positive take aways.

Going forward I am just hoping that our players can get healthy as the regular season draws to a close. Just to give us an idea of how good this team is, little mention had been made of the fact the Broncos punched their playoff ticket yesterday. It was just a forgone conclusion. Now it's time to set a new franchise first and win the division 3 consecutive seasons. En route to bigger and better things in the post season, of course.

Go Broncos!

 

[Morpheus]

You can call it luck, I'll say that Denver's secondary is vulnerable and the defense is susceptible to giving up big plays. We've seen it time and time again all season; opposing offenses getting big plays against us. If I recall correctly that's what got us beat in the playoffs last season, too.

As I said, the defense had a good second half yesterday, but if you're satisfied with that defensive performance yesterday I think you're standards are way too low.

The common thread for these games when the defense gives up a big play has been a number of starters out.

Not an excuse, just an observation. That tells me we lack some depth and experience in the secondary and that we are not consistent in getting pressure on the QB especially on obvious passing situations. If an opposing QB has time to go deep, then we are having trouble getting pressure.

Also, Special Teams kick coverage has been given up a few big plays this year as well.

These are the areas that concern me as a big play is a momentum shifter. In the playoffs, we need to be better in all phases to ensure a win and can't just cont on the offense to bail out the D and ST.

 

[WalkerBoh]

You can call it luck, I'll say that Denver's secondary is vulnerable and the defense is susceptible to giving up big plays. We've seen it time and time again all season; opposing offenses getting big plays against us. If I recall correctly that's what got us beat in the playoffs last season, too.

As I said, the defense had a good second half yesterday, but if you're satisfied with that defensive performance yesterday I think you're standards are way too low.

Then this team is doomed, because it has yet to meet your standards (well, except MAYBE the Redskins game). What got us beat in the playoffs wasn't a few big plays. It was what our defense did in between. Flacco had 331 yards passing and we allowed an additional 155 yards rushing to boot. That's a far cry from 172 and 96 (which, BTW is significantly below Tennessee's average for Passing and Rushing).

I'd say ANY time our defense can hold an opposing offense significantly below their season averages, it's a good outing.

Our defense gave up 4 plays of 20+ yards yesterday. In comparison we allowed 9-10 such plays to the Ravens last season, with more in the 10-20 yard range. Hardly comparable.

So, yes, overall I was pleased with the performance. Yes, there were a few warts, but that's going to happen in almost EVERY GAME. I'm certainly not going to expect perfection for the entire 60 minutes. Anyone who does is destined to be disappointed regardless of the outcome of the game.

 

[Broncos6482]

Then this team is doomed, because it has yet to meet your standards (well, except MAYBE the Redskins game).

Not remotely what I said. Don't put words in my mouth.

What got us beat in the playoffs wasn't a few big plays. It was what our defense did in between. Flacco had 331 yards passing and we allowed an additional 155 yards rushing to boot. That's a far cry from 172 and 96 (which, BTW is significantly below Tennessee's average for Passing and Rushing).

It was a combination of both that we lost, but you have to admit that the Ravens destroyed us with big play after big play. They had two long touchdown passes in the first half, and of course the game tying touchdown as well. The fact that the Broncos continue to get beat with big plays should be concerning. Remember the Broncos brought a statistically very good defense into that playoff game as well.

I'd say ANY time our defense can hold an opposing offense significantly below their season averages, it's a good outing.

I don't care at all about yards. Go for all the yards you want, it doesn't matter. No team has ever won a game in the NFL because they outgained their opponent. What matters to me is points allowed, and in that regard the Broncos gave up significantly more than the Titans season average (28 to 22.5).

Our defense gave up 4 plays of 20+ yards yesterday. In comparison we allowed 9-10 such plays to the Ravens last season, with more in the 10-20 yard range. Hardly comparable.

I'm not just talking about yesterday, I'm talking about the entire season. The Broncos have given up 55 pass plays over 20 yards this season, that's tied for worst in the NFL with Jacksonville. They've also given up 12 runs over 20 yards, that's 5th worse in the league. They're getting killed by big plays.

They're also giving up 26.5 points per game, which is 7th worse in the league. Those 6 teams below them? None of them have a winning record (the best is the Bears at 6-6).

So, yes, overall I was pleased with the performance. Yes, there were a few warts, but that's going to happen in almost EVERY GAME. I'm certainly not going to expect perfection for the entire 60 minutes. Anyone who does is destined to be disappointed regardless of the outcome of the game.

I'm not asking for perfection for an entire game. I'm saying the Broncos are consistently getting beat by big plays and that is a concern. Even Jack del Rio said that the Broncos haven't put together a complete game defensively.

Now I know there are a lot of factors that go into this, injury, inexperience, etc. But here's the thing: the season is rapidly approaching the end, and these things haven't been figured out. Now maybe the Broncos offense is good enough to overcome the defensive shortcomings, but that's putting a lot of pressure on them, and I think everyone from John Elway down to the last man on the 53 would feel a lot better if the defense stopped giving up so many big plays, and improved from being around the worst in the league statistically.

 

[WalkerBoh]

Not remotely what I said. Don't put words in my mouth.

You said that if I were pleased with yesterday that my expectations were too low. I looked, and the only game that was played statistically better than yesterday was the Washington game. Overall, when a defense can keep the opposition under 200 yards passing, and 100 yards rushing, I consider that a good outing. You must have higher expectations than that, hence your statement above.

It was a combination of both that we lost, but you have to admit that the Ravens destroyed us with big play after big play. They had two long touchdown passes in the first half, and of course the game tying touchdown as well. The fact that the Broncos continue to get beat with big plays should be concerning. Remember the Broncos brought a statistically very good defense into that playoff game as well.

And the Ravens came in with a completely different gameplan than they had a few weeks prior. As a team we failed to adjust. It happened at a bad time, but doesn't mean our defense was smoke and mirrors. Flacco also got hot at the perfect time. Wasn't just us. He helped Baltimore torch the Patriots and 49ers.

I don't care at all about yards. Go for all the yards you want, it doesn't matter. No team has ever won a game in the NFL because they outgained their opponent. What matters to me is points allowed, and in that regard the Broncos gave up significantly more than the Titans season average (28 to 22.5).

From game to game, it is about points. However, over the long haul, a defense that controls yardage will tend to keep scoring down. Yes, it hurts to give up occasional big plays. But when a defense controls yardage, it typically ALSO minimizes scoring opportunities. If it's not, 9 times out of 10 there's another issue unrelated to defense that providing those scoring opportunities. (ie. Long kick/punt returns, turnovers, etc. sound familiar?)
Now, a defense that gets gouged yardage-wise but finds ways to limit scoring is playing with fire. Sooner or later that defense will run into an offense that will convert that yardage to points. That offense very likely comes during the playoffs. I like the trend our D is taking from where it was the first month or so. It's likely if we continue taking care of the ball (like yesterday), and return to more normal special teams play then we will also limit points if we keep yardage down.

I'm not just talking about yesterday, I'm talking about the entire season. The Broncos have given up 55 pass plays over 20 yards this season, that's tied for worst in the NFL with Jacksonville. They've also given up 12 runs over 20 yards, that's 5th worse in the league. They're getting killed by big plays.

They're also giving up 26.5 points per game, which is 7th worse in the league. Those 6 teams below them? None of them have a winning record (the best is the Bears at 6-6).

Lumping the entire season into the argument assumes a team remains static, and will not improve/ get worse as the season progresses. How much of that damage was done in Sept/Oct vs. Nov/Dec? Personally, I'm a hell of a lot more concerned with what's happened the past 6 games vs. the first 7-8. Again, I like the overall trend.

I'm not asking for perfection for an entire game. I'm saying the Broncos are consistently getting beat by big plays and that is a concern. Even Jack del Rio said that the Broncos haven't put together a complete game defensively.

Now I know there are a lot of factors that go into this, injury, inexperience, etc. But here's the thing: the season is rapidly approaching the end, and these things haven't been figured out. Now maybe the Broncos offense is good enough to overcome the defensive shortcomings, but that's putting a lot of pressure on them, and I think everyone from John Elway down to the last man on the 53 would feel a lot better if the defense stopped giving up so many big plays, and improved from being around the worst in the league statistically.

I say lets revisit this come the end of the season. Again, what happens in Sept/Oct has little bearing on what happens in the playoffs to playoff-bound teams. Baltimore played like crap on defense for most of last season. How did that story end?

 

[Morpheus]

The big play issue is a combo of both Defense and Special Teams.

Kind of hard not to lump the 2 together, but the glaring issue for both is the inconsistency. They are not constantly giving up big plays, just as they are not consistently defending them.

This is my biggest concern because in 2 of our biggest games this season (Colts & Patriots), The Broncos unable to overcome the mistakes made by all 3 phases at times. ST, Offensive Turnovers and Big plays given up by the defense.

If we run the table and have the #1 seed at 14-2 then those 2 losses aren;t as big a deal if we have homefield and 1st round bye.

But the teams we face in the playoffs will be coming at us with everything they got and if ST kick return give sup a big play and Kayvon Webtser and Mike Adams get burned on deep plays and the offense puts the ball on the ground or god forbid Peyton Throws an INT, then it becomes tough to overcome even if the actual defense is playing really well overall.

I hope they focus the next 3 weeks on cleaning up the little things so we are ready for the playoffs.

 

[WalkerBoh]

The big play issue is a combo of both Defense and Special Teams.

Kind of hard not to lump the 2 together, but the glaring issue for both is the inconsistency. They are not constantly giving up big plays, just as they are not consistently defending them.

This is my biggest concern because in 2 of our biggest games this season (Colts & Patriots), The Broncos unable to overcome the mistakes made by all 3 phases at times. ST, Offensive Turnovers and Big plays given up by the defense.

If we run the table and have the #1 seed at 14-2 then those 2 losses aren;t as big a deal if we have homefield and 1st round bye.

But the teams we face in the playoffs will be coming at us with everything they got and if ST kick return give sup a big play and Kayvon Webtser and Mike Adams get burned on deep plays and the offense puts the ball on the ground or god forbid Peyton Throws an INT, then it becomes tough to overcome even if the actual defense is playing really well overall.

I hope they focus the next 3 weeks on cleaning up the little things so we are ready for the playoffs.

THIS! My biggest concern is limiting the mistakes. This will be key to our playoff success. I like the fact that we took good care of the football yesterday. We haven't lost a single fumble in the past two weeks.

 

[Broncos6482]

Lumping the entire season into the argument assumes a team remains static, and will not improve/ get worse as the season progresses. How much of that damage was done in Sept/Oct vs. Nov/Dec? Personally, I'm a hell of a lot more concerned with what's happened the past 6 games vs. the first 7-8. Again, I like the overall trend.

I say lets revisit this come the end of the season. Again, what happens in Sept/Oct has little bearing on what happens in the playoffs to playoff-bound teams. Baltimore played like crap on defense for most of last season. How did that story end?

I lumped all of this together because this is the main point I want to address. I agree that what happens in Sept/Oct has little bearing on the playoffs. A team can play one way in those months and get better later in the season. The problem is that isn't the case with the Broncos.

Early in the season, I preached patience with the defense. They were working without their most dynamic defensive player, they were working in a lot of new guys, and they were dealing with injuries. These were all facts that led me to believe the defense could get better over the long haul.

The thing is the same thing that plagued them early in the season has continued to plague them recently. The big plays are still happening in bunches. You mentioned the number of 20+ yard plays the Titans got against us, so I won't rehash that. But I looked back over the previous 3 games to see how the Broncos fared in the big play department, and it wasn't that great.

In the first game against the Chiefs, the Broncos gave up 3 passes 20 yards or more and 1 run. Personally I thought this was one of the best games the Broncos played defensively, so I don't really have too much to complain about here. However the Chiefs did test the Broncos downfield, which they hadn't really done to that point this season, so they definitely were attacking what they perceived to be a weakness.

Against the Patriots, the Broncos only allowed 2 pass plays 20 yards or great and 1 run. That's really not much to complain about there, either. I do think the weather played a factor in this, though, with the crazy wind the Patriots didn't really attack deep a lot. Still, the Broncos couldn't force a stop in the second half and of course collapsed and lost a game they really had no business losing.

In Kansas City was really bad. The Broncos allowed 2 runs 20 yards or more and 4 passes. Additionally, the Chiefs realistically could have had several more big plays if not for their receivers having hands of stones. Several big drops kept those numbers down.

Now I only looked at those 3 games because those are teams the Broncos could see in the playoffs. There is one thing that is a pattern; teams are attacking the Broncos down the field. The Chiefs did it twice and that certainly hasn't been their MO this season. The Patriots did it less, but still took a few shots. And of course the Broncos bottled the Titans up pretty well except for those few big plays they got off.

I guess my point is that if the pass rush doesn't get there, the secondary is extremely vulnerable deep. This doesn't mean that the Broncos can't win the Super Bowl, but I think it's naive to not be concerned about it and think it could be the team's Achilles heel. Could they get it fixed? Sure. But the longer it goes on the less likely they are to suddenly fix it. I know teams have suddenly fixed major issues in the playoffs in the past (the Colts in 2006 morphing from the worst run defense in the NFL to one of the best in the playoffs comes to mind), but I don't think it's realistic to expect it.

So forgive me if I'm not leaping for joy that the Broncos held the Titans to well under their season averages for yards. I don't care about that. While I'm happy the Broncos beat the Titans, anything less than a Super Bowl appearance and I will consider this season a disappointment, and I see the defense as a possible hindrance to that goal.