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The 2015 Starting Rotation - 2 Cy Young Winners and a Bunch of Injuries

lasportzphan

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You are literally making this up out of your ass. There is not a single shred of truth to what you just said.
No, it is true. I had a torn labrum with a subluxing shoulder. Other muscles in the back and around the shoulder started to compensate for the injury. It's all connected, bud. If a guy has a bad back, compensates for it then the arm could see more stress. He's clearly a tough dude because he noted issues in the second inning but said nothing.
 

lasportzphan

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Mvpuig- it took me two seconds to google this, something that doctors were aware about when I was in little league. This is why little league pitchers report pain within 50% of participants:

"With pitching and improper mechanics, the forces at the elbow are very high. So after throwing pitch after pitch with poor mechanics, the stresses increase to the point where growth plates can separate."
 

Rock Strongo

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i will trade you bostons rotation for yours. straight up.

i'll even throw in a bucket of chowder and dylan dryers home phone number.
 

Villain

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No, it is true. I had a torn labrum with a subluxing shoulder. Other muscles in the back and around the shoulder started to compensate for the injury. It's all connected, bud. If a guy has a bad back, compensates for it then the arm could see more stress. He's clearly a tough dude because he noted issues in the second inning but said nothing.
None of that has anything to do with elbows.
 

Villain

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i will trade you bostons rotation for yours. straight up.

i'll even throw in a bucket of chowder and dylan dryers home phone number.

600


"Hey guys... I just talked to Ned. He thinks we should do it..."

Farhan-Zaidi.jpg


"Whoa... Stan, you still talk to Ned? I thought that 'Senior Advisor' position was just a joke!"

201410141332487211554-p2.jpeg


"I think it's a great offer, you guys! Tommy will be pissed if he finds out that you turned down that bucket of chowder."

500x281


"Okay. New rule. Don't answer the phone if Ned on the other line."

5528165f4bada.image.jpg


"Don't worry, I'll get some organic, lactose-free chowder for Tommy."

gal-fat-fernando.jpg


"Ignore that pendejo, Tommy. Linda made some albondigas."
 

lasportzphan

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None of that has anything to do with elbows.
Don't be so simple. You're better than that.

It's about compensating. You have a back issue, neck issue, leg issue, glut issue etc and you compensate for it or adjust/alter your mechanics it creates stress on the arm (which is an unnatural motion). Longevity is about mechanics and complete body health. Don't think these guys are not strengthening their core year round to protect their arm.

McCarthy's body is not right. His elbow snapped because of it.
 

lasportzphan

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None of that has anything to do with elbows.
Villain - you can private message me your retraction and subsequent apology. I hate to call you out like this, but your smug attitude got you kind of owned on this subject matter:

"The second and third strategies are interrelated: use good throwing mechanics and build core strength. For example, a basic rule of pitching form is to keep the elbow above the shoulder during the acceleration phase of the throw. This reduces stress on the ligament. To keep your elbow above your shoulder pitch after pitch, game after game, requires good core strength. (Learn how to build core strength.) And by “core,” we’re not just talking abs; the legs and back must also be strong enough to support an explosive throwing motion."

How Pitchers Can Prevent Elbow Injuries | STACK

DID YOU READ THAT LAST BIT ABOUT A STRONG BACK? All connected, bud.

Dodgers took the risk because they can, but his arm exploding is no surprise considering his injury history, height and velocity.
 

Villain

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Villain - you can private message me your retraction and subsequent apology. I hate to call you out like this, but your smug attitude got you kind of owned on this subject matter:

"The second and third strategies are interrelated: use good throwing mechanics and build core strength. For example, a basic rule of pitching form is to keep the elbow above the shoulder during the acceleration phase of the throw. This reduces stress on the ligament. To keep your elbow above your shoulder pitch after pitch, game after game, requires good core strength. (Learn how to build core strength.) And by “core,” we’re not just talking abs; the legs and back must also be strong enough to support an explosive throwing motion."

How Pitchers Can Prevent Elbow Injuries | STACK

DID YOU READ THAT LAST BIT ABOUT A STRONG BACK? All connected, bud.

I read the whole article, and not a single research paper was cited. How about that.

Also, if you actually read what is being said (and not what you want to cherry pick on), the author is saying that you keep your UCL healthy by keeping your arm up and you keep your arm up with your shoulder and back muscles. Okaaaaaay... Well let's see a picture of McCarthy in that game and try to discover whethere his elbow was below his shoulder:

553ee9fc7cf90.image.jpg


Hey Brandon, what did you do to stay healthy all last year and throw over 200 innings?

"I finally got to a point of realizing I needed to get bigger and stronger," McCarthy recalled. "I found a trainer who agreed. He said, 'Look at you, you have the upper body of a teenage boy. Let's try to get you bigger and stronger.'

"I don't think I was ever strong enough upper body wise. I don't think I was strong enough in the back or shoulder," McCarthy said. "I'm very tall and skinny and one of the general maxims of baseball is that you don't lift upper body as a pitcher and you don't do it the way I needed to."

Oh yes, the guy who did all kinds of workouts to get stronger and be more durable. They totally should've expected Tommy John surgery!

Farhan, what the hell were you thinking?!

"For us, the proof is in the pudding. He got over 200 innings last year. Just as informatively, he added 2 mph to fastball, which is pretty unheard of for a guy at his age, a starting pitcher to do that," Zaidi said. "Just his ability to strengthen his upper body, to make himself into a more durable pitcher, we feel pretty good about him turning the corner. He has the ability to carry that kind of workload into the future."

McCarthy agrees.

"I've gotten to about as confident as I can possibly be," he said of his right shoulder.

SOURCE: Dodgers betting Brandon McCarthy can shoulder the load - True Blue LA

Dodgers took the risk because they can, but his arm exploding is no surprise considering his injury history, height and velocity.

What? Being tall means he's more likely to get hurt?
 

lasportzphan

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You're scrambling.... I'll let you off the hook.
 

lasportzphan

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No, I'm doing fine, but we can agree to disagree.
Indeed.... and what I am getting at is McCarthy had been on the DL 11 times in his nine year career prior to this recent surgery. Last season was the first year he had ever thrown over 200 innings (max before was 170 IP) nearly a 20% increase in innings pitched for a guy that has averaged 101 IP over his career.

Conclusion: It's okay to hold the Dodger brass accountable and blame them for a bad signing and subsequent long term deal. It looked funking to everyone during the off season and it failed. Had the guy never had major back surgery, been to the DL 11 times in 9 years and not doubled his innings pitched last year over his career average - then I would say "Aw shucks, bad luck." Instead, the writing was on the wall, risk was high and the signing failed.

As Andrew Freidman said himself, you make decisions, some work, some fail you just hope more decisions succeed than fail at the end of the year.

I was being tongue and cheek because you seem to have an agenda to defend the move and management as if this was some freak thing. And it's not if you look (even superficially look) at his medical history and career data. Management will make bad decisions. Even the Dodgers' management. It's okay to hold them accountable.
 

Villain

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Indeed.... and what I am getting at is McCarthy had been on the DL 11 times in his nine year career prior to this recent surgery. Last season was the first year he had ever thrown over 200 innings (max before was 170 IP) nearly a 20% increase in innings pitched for a guy that has averaged 101 IP over his career.

Conclusion: It's okay to hold the Dodger brass accountable and blame them for a bad signing and subsequent long term deal. It looked funking to everyone during the off season and it failed. Had the guy never had major back surgery, been to the DL 11 times in 9 years and not doubled his innings pitched last year over his career average - then I would say "Aw shucks, bad luck." Instead, the writing was on the wall, risk was high and the signing failed.

As Andrew Freidman said himself, you make decisions, some work, some fail you just hope more decisions succeed than fail at the end of the year.

I was being tongue and cheek because you seem to have an agenda to defend the move and management as if this was some freak thing. And it's not if you look (even superficially look) at his medical history and career data. Management will make bad decisions. Even the Dodgers' management. It's okay to hold them accountable.


Yeah. I don't agree with you at all, but like I said, agree to disagree.
 

Villain

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Scott Baker was DFA'd and all indications point to Mike Bolsinger getting that start.
 

Villain

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Current Rotation:

1. Kershaw (L)
2. Grienke (R)
3. Anderson (L)
4. Bolsinger (R)
5. Frias (R)

I don't know how much longer the Dodgers will get away with having Bolsinger and Frias at the end of that list.

Grant Bisbee (Giants fan) wrote this awesome piece on the Dodgers: How the dominating Dodgers can get even better - SBNation.com

I highly recommend reading the whole thing. Bisbee is one of my favorite writers. He's very funny and he's a great sport about the Dodgers/Giants rivalry.

Anyways, this part caught my attention:


Starting pitching
Problem
Brandon McCarthy is out for the season and the news about Hyun-jin Ryu keeps getting worse.

The Dodgers have done well enough, seamlessly inserting Carlos Frias into the rotation, but they're still giving 20 percent of their starts to a cavalcade of emergency options that a $270 million team shouldn't have to depend on. Also, if you're expecting Clayton Kershaw-related panic here, you'll have to move on. He's fine.

Likely solution
Wait for teams to give up and deal away their competent pitchers. This has been the strategy for the last couple years, with Paul Maholm, Kevin Correia, Ricky Nolasco, Roberto Hernandez and Edinson Volquez serving as the makeshift cavalry when the need arose.

Alternative solution
Really, this is the whole point of the article, buried at the bottom. If the Dodgers enter another postseason with a top-loaded rotation, they're goofy. They've made it through the prospect gauntlet, and now there's a spot where they can say, "No, seriously, we aren't trading Joc Pederson or Seager," and people know to back off. It's not like teams are going to ask for Kris Bryant from the Cubs in a trade this summer. There's a tipping point from prospect to cornerstone, and the Dodgers are on the other side with Pederson and Seager. That means deals are likelier to happen, now.

How does the old poem go?:

Kershaw and Greinke, pray it ain't stanky.


I thought it was Spahn and ... whatever, you get the point. Brett Anderson is a fine pitcher. Frias looks promising. But for the last two postseasons, the Dodgers have been forced to start Kershaw on short rest because they didn't have that third ace. It's cost them. Considering the state of their farm and bank account, it makes no sense to do it again this year.

Cole Hamels? Hey, sure. Let's just see what his nickname is on Baseball-Reference:



Screen_Shot_2015-05-15_at_9.19.57_AM.0.png



Exactly. And ... wait, Colbert? Well, I'll be.

But the Dodgers have the prospects to make teams give up pitchers they really, really weren't expecting to discuss, like Julio Teheran or Sonny Gray. If the Indians and Mariners keep falling further out of their respective races, there could be all sorts of enticing options that would trump the Kevin Correias and Roberto Hernandezes of years past.

The Dodgers have shortstop handled. They're not worried about third base. They'll probably have to bench an outfielder with a .900 OPS or better when Yasiel Puig comes back. They have aces at the top of the rotation and a bullpen that has done just fine without Kenley Jansen, who should come back soon. Everything is working for the Dodgers, and what isn't working will soon be fixed.

Except for that third pitcher. It's pretty greedy to be talking about a third ace as the missing piece of the puzzle, but, well, we're talking about the Dodgers. They should be greedy. This is almost a perfect Death Star of a roster, but they keep screwing around and doing anything other than fixing the thermal exhaust port.

They've probably learned their lesson after the last two postseasons. We'll see if they'll change it up this year, now that they've had their prospect cake and are eating it, too.


I put the most intriguing part in blue text.

This is really a perspective that I hadn't considered. I've always pegged the prime targerts for the Dodgers to be guys like Hamels, Cueto, and Samardija. I hadn't considered that they could make a play for a younger talent with more years of team control. I mean, why not?

Sure, it'll cost more in terms of prospects, but if the return is several years of control of a younger guy like Julio Teheran, Taijuan Walker, Sonny Gray, and the like... That'd be a trade scenario where the inclusion of Julio Urias or Grant Holmes could make sense.
 

LASports96

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I don't think I'd give up Urias for just about anybody (mainly because he's so young and has such a long future potentially ahead of him). I've thought about the younger control guys as well but I'm not sure how realistic that is going to be. We're definitely going to be in need of somebody in the coming weeks.
 

lasportzphan

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"Clean up" procedure? They could find a rotator cuff tear, torn labrum? Maybe need to shave the bone? Sounds like they don't know what they'll find.

Bummer. Well, hopefully the Phillies come to their senses on Hamels.
 

Villain

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Yeah, the term "clean up" is extremely vague. Anyone's guess except for medical team involved. I couldn't imagine that they are going in blind, that would be very unethical. The conditions you described are all able to be diagnosed through imaging.

Back to baseball, I'd rather have the Dodgers trade for one of the rent-an-ace pitchers than Hamels (Cueto, Samardzija, Price). Comparable talent, lower trade cost, and no long-term attatchment to Hamels' mid-30s.

This offseason's free agent class is pretty awesome:

Brett Anderson (28)
Brandon Beachy (29) – club option
Erik Bedard (36)
Chad Billingsley (31)
Clay Buchholz (31) – $13MM club option with a $245K buyout
Mark Buehrle (37)
A.J. Burnett (39)
Trevor Cahill (28) – $13MM club option with a $300K buyout
Chris Capuano (37)
Jhoulys Chacin (28)
Wei-Yin Chen (30)
Bartolo Colon (43)
Johnny Cueto (30)
Ross Detwiler (30)
R.A. Dickey (41) – $12MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Marco Estrada (32)
Doug Fister (32)
Gavin Floyd (33)
Yovani Gallardo (30)
Jaime Garcia (29) – $11.5MM club option with a $500K buyout
Zack Greinke (32) – can opt out of remaining three years/$71MM
Jeremy Guthrie (37) – $10MM mutual option with a $3.2MM buyout
J.A. Happ (33)
Aaron Harang (38)
Dan Haren (35)
Tim Hudson (40)
Hisashi Iwakuma (35)
Scott Kazmir (32)
Kyle Kendrick (31)
Ian Kennedy (31)
John Lackey (37)
Mat Latos (28)
Mike Leake (28)
Cliff Lee (37) – $27.5MM club/vesting option with a $12.5MM buyout
Tim Lincecum (32)
Kyle Lohse (37)
Corey Luebke (31) – $7.5MM club option with a $1.75MM buyout
Justin Masterson (31)
Brandon Morrow (31)
Bud Norris (31)
Mike Pelfrey (32)
David Price (30)
Ricky Romero (31) – $13.1MM club option with a $600K buyout
Jeff Samardzija (31)
Alfredo Simon (35)
Ryan Vogelsong (38)
Jerome Williams (34)
Chris Young (37)
Jordan Zimmermann (30)

Lots of names worth considering for short and long-term deals.
 

LASports96

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Johnny Cueto come on down... sooner rather than later please. (I still don't trust Frias and his mainly one pitch mix)
 
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