Seriously, I give up

[JohnU]

I have no more thoughts about the Reds.
I don't care if they win or lose now.
Just ... really, don't bother me with it.

 

[Redsfan1507]

I've said that before, never really stuck with me though. The thing that kills me isn't necessarily the W-L record, or even who they win against, it's who they lose to. I don't believe they should ever lose a series to 90 loss teams, and they should be able to win at least one game a series from the good teams. This isn't a lineup or middle bullpen that is going to win 100 games, but the starting rotation is a good one, less the required LHSP if they want to win a post season series...the D is top shelf, they can run too. The end of the bullpen is dominant. The fact the lineup can't be counted on for 2-3 runs a game against pitchers that won't have .500 records at the end of the season befuddles me.

 

[JohnU]

Any other questions?
If you can't bring your game to the park against the team that you have to beat, then ... you don't deserve my attention.

 

[eburg5000]

I know we have injuries. But that series was as bad maybe worse than the one we played in San Diego. No life. Can't hit with risp. Pitching wasn't great but it wouldn't have mattered anyway

 

[JohnU]

gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg (agging)

 

[eburg5000]

I don't give up, but I thought this was the best place to post how bad the Reds played this weekend

 

[JohnU]

These guys won't win twice more this month, could win maybe 10 in August.

The lineup that includes Lutz, Heisey, Santiago and Schumaker is the kind of lineup you'd have seen with the 1962 Mets. Don't be deceived. These guys would lose 110 games if they played together all year.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Well, when 3 players intended to be on your bench, are starting...a lot... It might be a sign YOUR TEAM SUX.

Bruce is having a terrible year. Votto is absent even when he (rarely) plays. Phillips is hurt. The entire year has been a cluster of injuries, several key players at a time. When you win with pitching and defense, shuffling the defense around doesn't help. Baserunning gaffes, errors and misplayed situations when you're starving for runs usually means losses.

The Reds are limping in the NLC race right now.

 

[eburg5000]

You mean "limping out of the NLC race".

 

[Hit-n-Run]

1507 pretty much summed it up.

The bench initially can keep a team in contention playing on emotion when a star or two go down. When the emotion and adrenaline pass all you're left with is the talent. That's where the Reds find themselves at the moment.

 

[Redsfan1507]

I can't speak for individual personalities on the Reds, but "the grind" is a stressor of "chemistry" anytime, but more so when guys that have the talent to put a team on their shoulders for a week at a time are hitting a .098 stretch, or in the clubhouse with a cast, or worse, sitting on the bench clutching a bat like a 3 year olds teddy bear, with an elastic bandage on a quad for two months. Lots of things happen that equalize talent levels- guys that perform well with help try to do too much. Guys that are full ins eventually get into not being able to do enough. Pitchers overthrow trying to strike everyone out. Guys pout. Get pissed off at others. Others sometimes just go through motions to get the check. Losing just is almost never condusive to good "chemistry"...not that I believe chemistry wins games over talent, but low morale often contributes to losing.

 

[redsfan03]

The Reds are playing like dog excrement right now, but I can't say it was hardly unexpected. 1507 is right - when two of the three offensive leaders on the team are out and the third is effectively out, it's going to be tough to win games. Pitching can only get you so far, and even that has gotten slightly worse.

 

[chico ruiz]

saying the reds are 'flat' coming out of the all-star break is being kind and euphemistic. in the bronx this past weekend it looked and felt like the yankees wanted it more. the 'old guys' out hustled the reds. that really surprised me. here's another euphemism: 'the reds approach at the plate is bad.' frankly, i didn't see any approach or plan whatsoever. yankees sprayed the ball all over the field. opposite field sac flys, taking what reds pitchers were giving (a cliche, but in this case a true one), going up the middle, patience at the plate, etc. reds hitters looked like they didn't have a clue what they were trying to do. as i said, no plan whatsoever at the plate. bruce's front side was opening up so early that it was impossible for him to even foul off any variety of off-speed pitch. seemed like he was looking inside fastball exclusively. i don't know how you maintain a successful mlb career like that. god help us, it's adam dunn II. cozart? swinging at fastballs near his chin that physics defines as unhittable. pena swinging for the fences in every at bat. the entire team looked off-balance and out of whack. but, first and foremost, the effort was just not there. i haven't seen the reds play like that since 2007. if you can't get some extra adrenaline to flow playing in front of a packed house, with a good contingent of reds fans on hand, you never will. i don't mind the losing so much when the millionaires are busting their collective butts. but, when i see pitchers not in position to back up catchers on throws from the outfield, players not running hard home to first on a ground ball, and outfielders jogging to cut off fly balls in the gap, it looks to me like they've given up. so, i completely understand why die hard fans like johnu would give up on them. why not? apparently they've given up on themselves.

 

[eburg5000]

This team has trouble scoring runs when everyone is healthy. Now its just sickening watching them.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Chico makes valid points.

The stereotype Yankee player is high paid, veteran...often old. Easy question- how'd they get there ? By being successful at the plate. Even on PED's, you gotta hit it first-approach and using your head with a plan is número UNO.

Clearly, many Reds hitters got to be Reds by another path- I've said for a long time that they arrive in Cincinnati with the same skills they had in high school, and don't often improve much from there. Maybe HOFers didn't develop much either, they always had it... but being stupid never improved anyone at any level. My hope was with Price, arguably more of a thinking mans manager, would develop at least an occasional smarter player. Maybe that evidence is Todd Frazier and Devin Mesoraco and Billy Hamilton...if so, that's 3 more than Dustaroo could claim...it's the more "finished" products recently signed to LT contracts that should be "leading" this team that are the real problems though. Predominantly Votto and Bruce, but Phillips wasn't exactly having a stellar offensive year before his injury either. Obviously, the idea was to build a team around these guys, (and the pitching) not in spite of them, but IMO, other than doing a better job moving runners without a homer, and (possibly) getting improvements from the afformentioned 3 newbies, I haven't seen any possibility of improving on last years win total less the big 3 core players-Votto, Bruce and Phillips...and worse, I don't believe they can give up in trade what it would take to replace any of them, and be any better. They could probably improve both the starting rotation and middle bullpen by bringing Chapman to the rotation, but if that's too scary, they could probably improve by replacing current batting tees with no name minors, or cheap waiver claims....impact hitters, not so much.

In pretty sick of hearing the WLW radio hacks talking like it's Jocketty's job to trade for a miracle. You don't get Stanton for Santiago and a 17th rounder, and if you could get him for Chapman, how would that make a W/L positive difference ? It wouldn't. You can't trade a guy on the DL. You can't trade a guy hitting .250 for half a seadon off the DL with $200 Mil balance of contract without paying him to go recover to MVP form with another team. This isn't NYC- they can't just go get another team- they have to use the one they have...and that may mean some stinkola until they can.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Wouldn't you think that a slick glove middle infielder like Cozart wouldn't be running on contact as a runner at 2b with 1 out ? The line out DP would have been on his mind if he were on D, so why was he clueless as a runner in that situation ? Surely it wasn't a hit & run, was it ? Someone made a mental mistake there, for sure....Things that make you go hmmmm.

 

[chico ruiz]

here are some words of wisdom from, in my opinion, one of the best managers in mlb. it encapsulates and distills 1507's comments ultimately to what goes on between the lines.

Maddon told anyone who would listen that the Rays would eventually get back on track. He told his players the same thing. In fact, he told them exactly that one day in June (the rays were 24-42 on june 10th - 18 games under .500). Maddon said he liked how they were playing, and that if they continued to do the right thing -- that is, if they continued to play hard and play smart -- there'd be a turnaround. simple, but poignant, and absolutely true in baseball. if teams do just that, they will eventually have things go their collective way. yes, the reds are missing votto, phillips, and bruce. i mention bruce because although he is physically on the field, he__________________(fill in the blank). maybe "fill in the 'blank'" says it all. you can't even use the 'deer in the headlights' metaphor with mr. bruce. it is more like an emptiness, void, or vacuum. maybe the 'lights are on but nobody's home' is closer to explaining this type of baseball nothingness. i don't know. i know this though; the effort / smart meter doesn't care who is on the field as it continues to measure and monitor. and, if it continually reads between 9 and 10, eventually good things will happen. i don't know how things are going to turn out for the rays, but they never looked like a team that had given up, and now they are within striking distance of the al east front runners, and 5 games back in the al wild card standings. so, maybe -just maybe- conviction, controlled aggressive approach, spirit, ultra-focus, extra-hard work, hustle, and (as 1507 mentions), overall morale does make a difference. seriously, it's what i go to the ballpark to see, and is the essence of the 'game.' isn't it?

 

[Redsfan1507]

I'll give you a Jeter quote: "It doesn't take any talent to hustle".

The perspective of mine, from admittedly a biased, unsympathetic, results oriented, accountability first guy is...the reason "throwback" is a term for guys that hustle, do the intangible, working class kinds of things, is that subsequent overwhelming generations of kinder, more sympathetic, participation rewarded/criticism avoided and ultimately less accountable players, are coddled into believing they're too good, for reasons excused as not their fault, to be expected to perform all that "101". Many previously entitled by talent are left to feel like (either) they've failed for the first time, or everyone responsible but them have failed them.

Winning and losing at baseball are both products of the ingredients (players / staff), the recipe (organizational preparation) and how the dish is served ( execution). Good cooks can often make inferior ingredients delicious, but it takes a lot more time...and although bad cooks can sometimes keep superior ingredients yummy by keeping it simple, more often than not mediocre cooks with haphazard ingredients just get lucky when they find success. It's not all about winning games, it's about winning at the gate... The two are usually related, and the fan atmosphere at GABP is already pretty good...it's generally a nice place to be, but people looking for better Reds baseball aren't always going to be happy with the daily menu special. Fans do seem to take it better when everyone appears to be at max effort...it's deceiving sometimes because of mannerisms- Jay Bruce often looks like he's distracted or frustrated or just lost. No one ever thought Sean Casey looked that way.

Winning solves most apparent problems. It doesn't just happen on it's own though.

 

[HammerDown]

 

[redlegs@hokies]

[MEDIA=twitter]492051999773720576[/MEDIA]

ugh, the early mid 2000s were tough to watch. Cincy played some turrible baseball. Griffey only had 197 abs that year. Wish he could have stayed healthy while he was here.