Maddux, Glavine, Thomas elected to HOF

[Lemon Harang Pie]

Having a shutout closer is a great asset... Just ask atlanta fans how they like craig kimbrel... and he is still nowhere near Mo was...

How great of an asset can it really be when the field wins the World Series a lot more often then the Yankees and as every Yankee fan will tell you, there is only one Mo?

 

[$500 Million]

How great of an asset can it really be when the field wins the World Series a lot more often then the Yankees and as every Yankee fan will tell you, there is only one Mo?

Mariano Rivera was an anomaly, human beings are not often able to do what he did for as long as he did it, and that is be the absolute best in the world at what you do for a living.

As for the field winning more than the Yankees, that has always been the case, the Yankees always lose more years than they win, but they also have and will win more often than your team does, whatever that team is.

Lastly, if you don't think that Mariano Rivera was a huge part of the Yankees dynasty then you either just started watching baseball or you're trying to stir up shit.

Have a nice day.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

lemon, who is your baseball team?? maybe we can give you a comparison you can understand...

 

[Wazmankg]

You do realize that wins require your team to score runs and is not a very accurate measuring stick for a pitcher? Nolan was on alot of teams that were average at best. More often than not, down right bad. He has a career ERA of 3.19 and only 324 wins. Maddux (the guy with the 24" strike zone) has a career ERA of 3.16 and has 31 more wins. Why because he played on a team that consistantly won the division and had an offense. Take 1987 for example, he had a 2.76 ERA and an 8-16 record.

But hey if you don't consider Ks, ERA, and Opponents BA to be important stats for a pitcher, I gues you have that right.

One more stat for you, Nolan Ryan Career Batting Average against - .204. Greg Maddux - .234. But yeah, Ryan is overrated because he doesn't have the number of wins that Maddux has.

It's not just wins. You can't just look at raw ERA. Ryan pitched in a pitcher's era. Maddux pitched in a more offensive era. His ERA+ is 20 points better than Ryan's 132 to 112. Ryan also walked 3 more guys per game than Maddux. If you're going to try to make a case for Ryan being top 10 Maddux probably isn't a good comparison.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Nolan Ryan was overrated for so long that I think he's actually underrated now.

I don't know about that, because from the people who say he's overrated (including myself), you don't really see them say things such as 'he was a mediocre pitcher' or 'he isn't top 50 of all time' etc.

Whereas, you still see people thinking he was better than Maddux as an example.

 

[Wazmankg]

Yeah and pitching was less watered down in the 70s & 80s.

I do think Ryan was better than Maddux, but its very close. I can see your point, I don't agree but the difference between the two is not worth arguing about. I used Maddux to compare stats because some people are upset thqt Maddux was not on every ballot and claim Ryan is over rated. I think both Maddux (even though I hated evry team he played for) and Ryan were the best pitchers of their generation.

Seaver & Carlton were both better pitchers than Ryan imo.

 

[Wazmankg]

Seaver & Carlton were both better pitchers than Ryan imo.

and to smitty's innings point they both pitched more innings per game and start than Ryan as well as being better by virtually every other measure except for Ks. There were probably others of his era who pitched more innings per start and per season, but I can't find a good reference for that.

 

[Wazmankg]

Nolan Ryan was overrated for so long that I think he's actually underrated now.

You may have a point there. No way, no how is he top 10 all time though.

 

[Lemon Harang Pie]

I don't know about that, because from the people who say he's overrated (including myself), you don't really see them say things such as 'he was a mediocre pitcher' or 'he isn't top 50 of all time' etc.

Whereas, you still see people thinking he was better than Maddux as an example.

It was only yesterday I commented on how underrated Nolan Ryan has become when another poster laughed at someone for thinking he was a great pitcher. Nolan Ryan was definitely a great pitcher. He just wasn't the greatest pitcher of all time as one survey had him.

 

[Droopdog51]

Seaver & Carlton were both better pitchers than Ryan imo.

I would have to disagree with you, but I can see where you can make that argument. It may just come down to personal preference but to me Ryan was the best pitcher of his generation. As Maddux was for his generation.

 

[DragonfromTO]

He pitched in 35 post season games. 72 ER in 35 games is not a lot. You should be embarrassed to post that as a standalone stat as if it's significant.

He didn't quote me but I believe he was responding to the comment that I made earlier in the thread ("...I don't have the numbers in front of me but I seem to recall that he gave up a ton of unearned runs in the playoffs...") and that his comment that "That is a lot" was referring only to the unearned runs (25 in 198 innings, which is indeed "a lot").

 

[steveringo]

I would have to disagree with you, but I can see where you can make that argument. It may just come down to personal preference but to me Ryan was the best pitcher of his generation. As Maddux was for his generation.

I don't want to underrate Nolan Ryan. I'd have him in my top 25. But I have him well behind Seaver.

I'd also have Maddux behind Pedro Maritnez & Roger Clemens (and maybe even RJ)...

 

[gunnarthor]

I don't want to underrate Nolan Ryan. I'd have him in my top 25. But I have him well behind Seaver.

I'd also have Maddux behind Pedro Maritnez & Roger Clemens (and maybe even RJ)...

A Red Sox fan overrating Pedro? I'm stunned.

 

[steveringo]

A Red Sox fan overrating Pedro? I'm stunned.

 

[steveringo]

A Red Sox fan overrating Pedro? I'm stunned.

It is funny if you looks at the stats. They both packed their best years into a 12-15 year period. Maddux just took longer to fizzle out (his last five seasons were just ok). Martinez just broke down faster. Pedro's best 14 years put up a 161 ERA+ (93-07). Maddux's best 14 was 153 ERA+ (88-02).

Maddux may have a few more great seasons, but over their career Pedro was better.

And, I give Pedro props because his best years were against the AL (& in the AL East).

 

[broncosmitty]

It is funny if you looks at the stats. They both packed their best years into a 12-15 year period. Maddux just took longer to fizzle out (his last five seasons were just ok). Martinez just broke down faster. Pedro's best 14 years put up a 161 ERA+ (93-07). Maddux's best 14 was 153 ERA+ (88-02).

Maddux may have a few more great seasons, but over their career Pedro was better.

And, I give Pedro props because his best years were against the AL (& in the AL East).

It'd almost be better if we could just erase the Met years.

 

[gunnarthor]

It is funny if you looks at the stats. They both packed their best years into a 12-15 year period. Maddux just took longer to fizzle out (his last five seasons were just ok). Martinez just broke down faster. Pedro's best 14 years put up a 161 ERA+ (93-07). Maddux's best 14 was 153 ERA+ (88-02).

Maddux may have a few more great seasons, but over their career Pedro was better.

And, I give Pedro props because his best years were against the AL (& in the AL East).

You can give Pedro some props for pitching in the AL (although, some of those years, the AL East was two teams and three doormats and some of those years, it wasn't that good - the 2000 Yankees won, what, 89 games? The AL West had some great teams those years) But regardless, over those 15 year periods, Maddux pitched 1000 more innings. That's five seasons worth of extra pitching. That lack of durability really knocks him out of the all-timers list for me. Awesome rate stats but ...

Look at this
Pedro's entire career: 219-100, 2827ip 154 ERA+, 1.054 whip 87 WAR
Maddux 90-01: 212-108, 2880ip, 159 ERA+, 1.057 whip 83WAR

And outside of those 12 years, Maddux threw another 2131 innings. It's not even close.

 

[$500 Million]

Maddux may have a few more great seasons, but over their career Pedro was better.

When comparing entire careers, Maddox blows Perdo out of the water, and it's not even close. Pedro was dominant from 1997 to 2003, he was never the Pedro everyone feared after that.

However from 1997 -2003 Pedro was among the greatest pitchers in the history of baseball IMO. I'd put Pedro circa 1999 up against anyone including Koufax at his peak. That's the best comparison for Pedro, Sandy Koufax. Maddux is comparable to Warren Spahn or Tom Seaver.

 

[steveringo]

You can give Pedro some props for pitching in the AL (although, some of those years, the AL East was two teams and three doormats and some of those years, it wasn't that good - the 2000 Yankees won, what, 89 games? The AL West had some great teams those years) But regardless, over those 15 year periods, Maddux pitched 1000 more innings. That's five seasons worth of extra pitching. That lack of durability really knocks him out of the all-timers list for me. Awesome rate stats but ...

Look at this
Pedro's entire career: 219-100, 2827ip 154 ERA+, 1.054 whip 87 WAR
Maddux 90-01: 212-108, 2880ip, 159 ERA+, 1.057 whip 83WAR

And outside of those 12 years, Maddux threw another 2131 innings. It's not even close.

Yeah, he was pretty whimpy. Good points. Damn those IP!

But when he was healthy, he was pretty nasty....

 

[HammerDown]

Maddux, Smoltz and Glavine get coveted "Padres naked hug" from Brian Giles.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nNEO2C3xbk]Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, John Smoltz Pranked During Interview! - YouTube[/ame]