Maddux, Glavine, Thomas elected to HOF

[StanMarsh51]

2014 Hall of Fame Ballot

On this stacked ballot of both newcomers and holdovers from last year, who'd you vote for? (This isn't about whether or not you think they'll end up making it, but whether you think they're HOF worthy).

1st time on ballot:

Greg Maddux
Frank Thomas
Mike Mussina
Tom Glavine
Jeff Kent
Kenny Rogers
Luis Gonzalez
Moises Alou

Holdovers:
Craig Biggio
Jack Morris
Jeff Bagwell
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Curt Schilling
Roger Clemens
Barry Bonds
Edgar Martinez
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Don Mattingly
Sammy Sosa
Rafael Palmeiro

 

[Mister Twister]

Greg Maddux and Craig Biggio

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Greg Maddux
Frank Thomas
Mike Mussina
Tom Glavine
Jeff Kent
Craig Biggio
Jeff Bagwell
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Roger Clemens
Barry Bonds
Edgar Martinez
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker

Fuck, I can only take 10.

In that case:
Bonds
Maddux
Clemens
Thomas
Bagwell
Biggio
Piazza
Raines
Mussina
Schilling

It's a fucking disgrace that there are this many worthy players on the ballot.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Greg Maddux and Craig Biggio

 

[calsnowskier]

Greg Maddux
Mike Piazza
Roger Clemens
Barry Bonds
Jeff Kent
Frank Thomas
Tom Glavine
Craig Biggio
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell

SUPER stacked. I actually have a few guys I would like to vote for, but there simply isn't room. I have also dropped someone that I have traditionally voted for in the past...

I would vote for, but simply no room...

Jeff Bagwell
Lee Smith
Larry Walker

Fell off my ballot...

Mark McGwire

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Greg Maddux
Mike Piazza
Roger Clemens
Barry Bonds
Jeff Kent
Frank Thomas
Tom Glavine
Craig Biggio
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell

SUPER stacked. I actually have a few guys I would like to vote for, but there simply isn't room. I have also dropped someone that I have traditionally voted for in the past...

I would vote for, but simply no room...

Jeff Bagwell
Lee Smith
Larry Walker

Fell off my ballot...

Mark McGwire

Can you explain why Glavine gets your vote, but you wouldn't vote for Mussina or Schilling even if the ballot were larger?

I'm also puzzled why Bagwell gets relegated to the 2nd list, but diff'rent strokes, I guess.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Greg Maddux
Mike Piazza
Roger Clemens
Barry Bonds
Jeff Kent
Frank Thomas
Tom Glavine
Craig Biggio
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell

SUPER stacked. I actually have a few guys I would like to vote for, but there simply isn't room. I have also dropped someone that I have traditionally voted for in the past...

I would vote for, but simply no room...

Jeff Bagwell
Lee Smith
Larry Walker

Fell off my ballot...

Mark McGwire

Lee Smith over the likes of Mussina/Schilling?

I think a lot of people nowadays look at Smith and see the saves numbers, and not that he was an inconsistent reliever who compiled saves (part of the reason he bounced around the league).

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Lee Smith over the likes of Mussina/Schilling?

I think a lot of people nowadays look at Smith and see the saves numbers, and not that he was an inconsistent reliever who compiled saves (part of the reason he bounced around the league).

Holy shit, I didn't even see that.

 

[navamind]

Clemens
Bonds
Maddux
Piazza
Thomas
Bagwell
Mussina
Raines
Schilling
Trammell

I'd also vote for Walker, Glavine, Kent, Biggio, and Edgar. On the fence with McGwire.

 

[birdsonthebat]

Maddox, Thomas, Glavine and Biggio for sure.

I would also go with Rock for his stats but also just the disruptive force he could be for opponents.

Bond, Clemens, McGuire and Sosa certainly have met the HOF level in performance but...
I think I would hold off at present with a vote for them.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Maddox, Thomas, Glavine and Biggio for sure.

I would also go with Rock for his stats but also just the disruptive force he could be for opponents.

Bond, Clemens, McGuire and Sosa certainly have met the HOF level in performance but...
I think I would hold off at present with a vote for them.

Why no Piazza? Why no Bagwell? Why Glavine, but no Mussina or Schilling?

I understand we all have our opinions, but I don't understand the reasoning when you don't vote for player who were clearly better than some players you did vote for.

 

[navamind]

Why no Piazza? Why no Bagwell? Why Glavine, but no Mussina or Schilling?

I understand we all have our opinions, but I don't understand the reasoning when you don't vote for player who were clearly better than some players you did vote for.

BUT GLAVINE WAS A WINNER!!11

 

[gunnarthor]

Is the limit still 10? If so (in no particular order):

Maddux
Thomas
Glavine
Mussina
Morris
Biggio
Piazza
McGriff
Raines
Trammel

I don't think those are the 10 best guys but that's the limit. The roid guys aren't getting in, at least not anytime soon so no point in voting for them. I don't think it should be that black/white but it seems to be. I'm ok with that but on the other hand, if you're going to penalize guys for PED use, I think you should also vote for guys you think were clean, like McGriff who went from being one of the best sluggers in the game to an after thought.

Morris is on his last ballot. Trammel should get more support although I'm not convinced he's a HOFer. I'm really torn on Raines, some days I think he's a HOFer others I don't. Really, he had an amazing 5 year run (83-87) but really nothing outside that and those years count too. I'd vote for him today but ...

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Is the limit still 10? If so (in no particular order):

Maddux
Thomas
Glavine
Mussina
Morris
Biggio
Piazza
McGriff
Raines
Trammel

I don't think those are the 10 best guys but that's the limit. The roid guys aren't getting in, at least not anytime soon so no point in voting for them. I don't think it should be that black/white but it seems to be. I'm ok with that but on the other hand, if you're going to penalize guys for PED use, I think you should also vote for guys you think were clean, like McGriff who went from being one of the best sluggers in the game to an after thought.

Morris is on his last ballot. Trammel should get more support although I'm not convinced he's a HOFer. I'm really torn on Raines, some days I think he's a HOFer others I don't. Really, he had an amazing 5 year run (83-87) but really nothing outside that and those years count too. I'd vote for him today but ...

So you didn't vote for them because of irrational groupthink?

And how do you know McGriff was clean? And what about Bagwell? You don't think he was better than McGriff?

And why Glavine, Mussia and Morris, but no Schilling?

 

[Omar 382]

Greg Maddux
Frank Thomas
Tom Glavine
Craig Biggio
Jeff Bagwell
Mike Piazza
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Curt Schilling
Tim Raines

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Greg Maddux
Frank Thomas
Tom Glavine
Craig Biggio
Jeff Bagwell
Mike Piazza
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Curt Schilling
Tim Raines

Glavine and Schilling, but no Mussina?

This is showing up a lot. These three guys were basically equal. If anything Glavine was the least spectacular of the three. I just don't get the inconsistency in the voting.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Greg Maddux
Frank Thomas
Tom Glavine
Craig Biggio
Jeff Bagwell
Mike Piazza
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Curt Schilling
Tim Raines

Actually, I just noticed our ballots are identical except you have 9 players and left off Mussina.

 

[romeo212000]

You guys think Kenny Rogers makes it?

 

[gunnarthor]

So you didn't vote for them because of irrational groupthink?

And how do you know McGriff was clean? And what about Bagwell? You don't think he was better than McGriff?

And why Glavine, Mussia and Morris, but no Schilling?

It's not "irrational groupthink." I suppose it depends in part on how you view being inducted into the baseball HOF. If it's a right or an honor. If it's a right, than I think you can't keep the PED guys out. If it's an honor, than you can. Just how you view it. It's not like Pete Rose isn't in the HOF, the Hall has tons of stuff about him, he just doesn't have a plaque. I happen to think that PEDs made very good players much better than they were and one result of this was to make clean player's careers look smaller. Compare Radke and Pettitte for instance. One cheated and lied about it 3 different times. The other couldn't break glass with his fastball. Yet they had similar results through their age 32 season - Radke had a slight WAR advantage and IP advantage but he had to retire with injuries. The other guy gets stupid "will he be a HOFer" columns.

Obviously, we don't ever know who was clean and who wasn't. On the other hand, this is an internet vote for the baseball HOF so it's not really that important either. If TrueNiners had found this board, he'd tell you that Bonds never took PEDs. If you don't think some player took PEDs (or that it helped him) that's fine. If you don't think PED use should be a negative factor in HOF voting, that's fine.

As to your specifics, I do think Bagwell was a PED guy and McGriff wasn't. Morris is on his last ballot and the 80s are really under represented in the Hall (another reason I voted for Raines) so I don't mind voting for him. I think Schilling was a PED guy. Glavine might have been one too for all I know but I don't think he was (he was also very underrated. He threw 1200 more innings than Schilling. He managed to be top 10 in IP and ERA+ in the same season 9x. That's really rare. My guess is that in the next few years the stat heads will start giving more weight to the value of innings pitched by saving bullpens etc and guys like Glavine and Blyleven will seen as much more valuable than they are now). Mussina had a better career than Schilling, even ignoring PED use.

 

[StanMarsh51]

You guys think Kenny Rogers makes it?

Kenny Rogers is in the Country Music Hall of Fame...that should be enough for him.