The best player in the league

[shitsho]

Lebron is still the best. Durant is having a better year though.

 

[trojanfan12]

That is not even close to what I said...and still can't let it go that you watched a whole 3 games and that tells you every thing :rollseyes:

As I've said, I watched a whole lot more than 3 games.


Unread thread title is unread just like thread.

Let me rehash my points for you and you can pick and choose what to debate...also all of these points can be found in posts made by me in this not that long thread.

-We are rating players just as if they were in a video game with rated attributes

I don't play video games and you never mentioned them.


-Past accomplishments do not have nothing to do with current attributes

Current attributes still favor Kobe when talking about drive to win and desire to improve.

-Kobe was better in his prime

Agree.

-KD may not have reached his prime

Agree again.

-Right now today I think KD is playing the best basketball by anybody, but still think LBJ is the best and LBJ should be ranked #2 right now

Disagree. Durant is on a crazy scoring run right now. But Lebron is playing a much more all-around game. Not seeing a whole out of Durant outside of an amazing scoring run.


-If I were going to build a team around either Kobe or KD (assuming they are both rookies) I am choosing KD mainly because KD gets along much better with teammates and has yet to show any form of off court troubles. This of course is mostly incomplete info on KD and mostly complete info on Kobe so things could change but I am operating with the info that I have and KD has never been in any spats with any teammates through the media or been caught sleeping with a hooker who accused him of r*pe.

So, you are wanting to use past transgressions/mistakes against Kobe to justify taking Durant over him as a rookie. But don't want to allow the use of past accomplishments as a reason to choose Kobe over Durant, right? After all, none of the things that you posted had happened when Kobe was a rookie. Just want to make sure we have the correct parameters.

-Rings are given to players but are won by the Owner's and GM's who put the team together.

The rings are won by the players on the floor. If they were won by the owners and GM's who put the team together, then the Lakers would have won the championship last year as most experts thought they would and/or the Heat would already have their 3-peat.

The owners and GM's can only sign the players. The players and coaches are the one's who have to make it work on the court. Evidently, you've only seen 3 games in your lifetime.


I should probably start charging you for these basketball lessons. Do you have a PayPal account?

 

[Shanemansj13]

I'd take a healthy Kobe or Lebron over Durant & wouldn't think twice. Heck I'd take a healthy Kobe over Lebron. Kobe has the CLUTCH GENE.

Actually you are wrong. Lebron is the most clutch player since he came into the league.

LeBron James: Heat Star Statistically Most Clutch Player Since NBA Debut | Bleacher Report

 

[BOTSLAYER]

The rings are won by the players on the floor. If they were won by the owners and GM's who put the team together, then the Lakers would have won the championship last year as most experts thought they would and/or the Heat would already have their 3-peat.

The owners and GM's can only sign the players. The players and coaches are the one's who have to make it work on the court. Evidently, you've only seen 3 games in your lifetime.


I should probably start charging you for these basketball lessons. Do you have a PayPal account?

The choosing Kobe to build around was a side thought separate topic.

Desire to improve is huge but having teammates is pretty big too.

I used the video game reference to give an example of how the rating system would work.

I can go either way with KD or LBJ right now, LBJ is being lazy though and I understand the situation but you always want your players to play their best.

And of course the wars are won by soldiers but the generals put it all together. It is great you brought up the Lakers, yes they put together great names on paper but the bottom line is they did not work together. It was like sending the Spice Girls into D day. Actually I think the Knicks are the Spice girls, the Lakers were the Beach Boys.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

Actually you are wrong. Lebron is the most clutch player since he came into the league.

LeBron James: Heat Star Statistically Most Clutch Player Since NBA Debut | Bleacher Report

Why confuse them with facts?

And, on top if that, these same people who say James can't be better then Kobe because of ring count now want to elevate Durant over James

 

[Lakers+USC=#1]

Actually you are wrong. Lebron is the most clutch player since he came into the league.

LeBron James: Heat Star Statistically Most Clutch Player Since NBA Debut | Bleacher Report

Stat nerd alart, who think stats tell the whole story.

 

[Wishbone]

Triple double for KD tonight.

 

[trojanfan12]

The choosing Kobe to build around was a side thought separate topic.

Desire to improve is huge but having teammates is pretty big too.

I used the video game reference to give an example of how the rating system would work.

I can go either way with KD or LBJ right now, LBJ is being lazy though and I understand the situation but you always want your players to play their best.

And of course the wars are won by soldiers but the generals put it all together. It is great you brought up the Lakers, yes they put together great names on paper but the bottom line is they did not work together. It was like sending the Spice Girls into D day. Actually I think the Knicks are the Spice girls, the Lakers were the Beach Boys.

I understand Kobe or KD to build around, but you still used Kobe's past transgressions/mistakes as a reason NOT to choose him to build around as a rookie, but then discounted the past accomplishments as a reason to choose him over KD.

For an apples to apples comparison, you either have to allow both or disallow both. Otherwise, it's not apples to apples.

Looking at them both as rookies and knowing only what we knew about them at the time. I see it as a bit of a tossup. Kobe was a more complete player and was a little younger, but a player with Durant's height who can do what he can, is pretty rare.

Looking at them in their primes and what they've accomplished, then Kobe is the clear choice.

Looking at it including transgressions, then it swings over to Durant because Kobe has not been the easiest guy to play with during his career.

Completely agree with the rest of the post. Although, I'm not sure Lebron is being lazy as much as trying to make sure he has something left in the tank for the playoffs. Lebron has an incredible amount of pressure on him right now. Combine that with trying to make it to a 4th straight finals with a part-time D-Wade and it's got to be taking a toll.

And Damn you sir for making me defend Lebron!!

 

[Lone Granger]

Comparing Tiger Woods to Kevin Durrant is a joke. Tiger wins Tournaments & is the most feared Golfer in the World. Durrant is a very talented basketball player who has yet to win anything.

Tiger Woods shoots 79 at Farmers Insurance Open - ESPN

 

[BOTSLAYER]

I am not discounting Kobe's rings, he has those rings but those are team accomplishments who anybody with his on court skill set would have won. Durant might even contributed more earlier because he was older and more NBA ready when he came into the league, but that is neither here nor there.

Durant may not be quite the 2 way player Kobe was but if I build with Durant the hard fought for pieces I find are much more likely to get along with Durant.

Basically I am ignoring all hardware* and choosing based on as much attribute info that I have. Clearly Kobe's career is much better than Durant's so far.


*Because no trophy or award helps win a game or the next title regardless of what TMZPN says.

 

[BOTSLAYER]

Tiger Woods shoots 79 at Farmers Insurance Open - ESPN

Wow, he has won that event 50% of the time, sick.

I am one of those golf fans who will watch if he is playing but other wise could not care less and am annoyed if they do not show his every shot. Sickest shot I ever saw was Phil through the pines off the pine needles 180 yards to the green.

 

[trojanfan12]

I am not discounting Kobe's rings, he has those rings but those are team accomplishments who anybody with his on court skill set would have won. Durant might even contributed more earlier because he was older and more NBA ready when he came into the league, but that is neither here nor there.

Durant may not be quite the 2 way player Kobe was but if I build with Durant the hard fought for pieces I find are much more likely to get along with Durant.

Basically I am ignoring all hardware* and choosing based on as much attribute info that I have. Clearly Kobe's career is much better than Durant's so far.


*Because no trophy or award helps win a game or the next title regardless of what TMZPN says.

Imo, not counting the hardware at all is just as much of a fallacy as making it the #1 factor. Yes, winning titles requires a team, but that team must also have leaders who can get them there. We're not talking about Robert Horry collecting a bunch of rings because he happened to be a role player on the right teams at the right time.

We're talking about leading a team to rings. Kobe has done that 5 times (3 as a 1b and 2 as the 1a). Durant has not shown that he can do this. It doesn't mean he won't, but as of right now, he is in there with players like Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, John Stockton and Patrick Ewing. Everyone of them was a great player, but weren't able to lead their teams to titles.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Stat nerd alart, who think stats tell the whole story.

Ok so many more game winning or tieing shots makes him less clutch than a guy who has made less.

You might want to think about what you just said.

 

[BOTSLAYER]

Imo, not counting the hardware at all is just as much of a fallacy as making it the #1 factor. Yes, winning titles requires a team, but that team must also have leaders who can get them there. We're not talking about Robert Horry collecting a bunch of rings because he happened to be a role player on the right teams at the right time.

We're talking about leading a team to rings. Kobe has done that 5 times (3 as a 1b and 2 as the 1a). Durant has not shown that he can do this. It doesn't mean he won't, but as of right now, he is in there with players like Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, John Stockton and Patrick Ewing. Everyone of them was a great player, but weren't able to lead their teams to titles.

I completely agree about the hardware in a GOAT list, but not in a current skills attribute assessment. The MVP is more applicable but I think that the "clutch" gene is a myth* and 95% of these players have been taught some where down the line how to win and have that fueled desire of winning...except maybe Melo who still has a NCAA championship that Rose, Kobe and Durant can not claim. Think of all the players that play basketball in the world, me, you, your friends family. Then think of all the players that play for a living. Europe has leagues, the NBA has a minor league, Australia, the WNBA...and the NBA is the elitist, highest paying league in the world. These players are the best, of the best, SIR**. YOu do not get that far up the food chain with out a killer instinct and drive to be the better than the best.

All documented history (Phil Jackson) says that Kobe is a horrible leader and douche bag teammate (keep reading). He may have been the 1b scoring option for his 1st 3 but he was no where near leadership role.

As for Barkley, Malone, Stockton and Ewing I blame ultimately the GMs for not putting a finished product on the court, but I also blame the players for not finding a situation that will win them the rings. If rings are not that important to them (Wilt) then it is unfair to judge them on that, except you play to win the game (Russell).

You could say that Durant's loyalty to OKC is greater than his drive to win titles, but in a fantasy draft I do not see how that would be relevant to the anti Durant cause. It actually shows he will be that much better for the franchise as a blind follower of the "cause". Durant is a minion, Kobe is...I am trying to find a nice way of saying manipulative cry baby egotistical ass hole...there is no nice way to say that.

Kobe had public spats with teammates and coaches and was accused of r*pe for off court transgressions which can not be seen as anything less than a major distraction, especially when he unnecessarily throws a teammate under the bus during his police questioning.

Durant on the other hand has done nothing but just short of blindly follow OKC FO decisions despite publicly stating his love for current (Westbrook) and former (Harden) teammates. When these actions change so will my stance on his compatibility but right now that is the information we have available.


*MJ shot 50% in clutch scenarios and 50% for his career, LBJ shoots ~43% in clutch and 48% for his career...Kobe is the only one who shoots drastically different in the 2 scenario's and he is much worse in clutch scenario's. I think this can be accounted for by his inability to trust teammates so when he is tripled teamed he is going to jack up the long twice contested 3 ball. MJ had refs to ensure he was untouched and LBJ is not aggressive enough, both in not driving enough and passing too much. All things have a rhyme and reason if you can understand a players game.

**MIB reference

 

[Lone Granger]

Wow, he has won that event 50% of the time, sick.

I am one of those golf fans who will watch if he is playing but other wise could not care less and am annoyed if they do not show his every shot. Sickest shot I ever saw was Phil through the pines off the pine needles 180 yards to the green.

I never saw Phil's shot, but I'll go and youtube it. I watch a bit of Golf, but I am more like you in that regard.

 

[Lakers+USC=#1]

Ok so many more game winning or tieing shots makes him less clutch than a guy who has made less.

You might want to think about what you just said.

Hey, stat nerd, do those stats tell you how the plays went or what type of defense was played on that player? Keep thinking stats tell you the whole story if you want to.