Game Thread: skins

[DanBengalfan]

looking ok for the most part against the skins...

 

[BKBroiler9000]

The offense could be really good if healthy. AJ continues to be one of the game's greatest. Mixon is gonna be special. Still haven't seen much from John Ross. But he'll show up on some jet sweeps I'm sure..

The line continues to be a concern. Ogbuehi is a stiff. Fisher has been okay. Hopkins looks like a competent starting guard.

Defense looks solid pass rush wise. I don't know how Marvin and Guenther can watch Chris Smith and Jordan Willis play and continue to trot MJ out there. Carl Lawson might be the Peter Boulware that Marvin has been looking for since he got here. That kid flashes when he's on the field. Burfict might be the best player on the team at any position.

 

[Cincyfan78]

From what I heard, first team O and D looked solid. Health is always going to be a huge key with the offense because they have little room for error with the OL.

Burfict looked great, and now word is he's facing a 5 game suspension.

 

[cincygrad]

The defense is different with Burfict on the field. They are lost without him.

If they suspend him 5 games for that hit, we should all stop watching football.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

It was a clean hit even. They are just looking for ways to suspend him since he never does anything bad in his personal life.

 

[Cincyfan78]

I'm not sure what "rule" was broken, but if we are being honest, it was a stupid hit and totally not needed.

That being said, while the RB did not have his head turned around, it's not like Burfict took a dirty shot at him. Hit him in the body, and I don't *think* he hit him in any way other than him being unsuspecting.

But, the fact of the matter is...the NFL is moving more and more towards trying to prevent these kinds of plays and Burfict still hasn't learned how to toe the line between being an enforcer to just being out of control on the field. We may not like it, but it is what it is. Either he has to adapt, or he'll never play a full season.

 

[cincygrad]

I'm not sure what "rule" was broken, but if we are being honest, it was a stupid hit and totally not needed.

That being said, while the RB did not have his head turned around, it's not like Burfict took a dirty shot at him. Hit him in the body, and I don't *think* he hit him in any way other than him being unsuspecting.

But, the fact of the matter is...the NFL is moving more and more towards trying to prevent these kinds of plays and Burfict still hasn't learned how to toe the line between being an enforcer to just being out of control on the field. We may not like it, but it is what it is. Either he has to adapt, or he'll never play a full season.

Physical teams did shit like this for years.... Kept teams from getting comfortable with the underneath shit that chews up yards. Having a player like Burfict on the field is exactly what the Bengals need. They are consistently burned by teams throwing underneath, bootlegs, and screen passes.

I'm not a fan of the after the whistle crap that Burfict has done in the past.... And I'm still mad about his thinking in that playoff game. But, this was a legal hit - And he shouldn't be suspended for it. If you want your receivers to be able to run free, they need to clear 5 yards first.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Physical teams did shit like this for years.... Kept teams from getting comfortable with the underneath shit that chews up yards. Having a player like Burfict on the field is exactly what the Bengals need. They are consistently burned by teams throwing underneath, bootlegs, and screen passes.

I'm not a fan of the after the whistle crap that Burfict has done in the past.... And I'm still mad about his thinking in that playoff game. But, this was a legal hit - And he shouldn't be suspended for it. If you want your receivers to be able to run free, they need to clear 5 yards first.

Here's the problem...those years you refer to are long gone, and are not coming back. I don't like it. You don't like it. I'd wager to say most NFL fans don't like it. None of that matters. The new way is here to stay, and it's only going to get worse for physical players like Burfict.

He either adapts, or he'll be out of the league sooner rather than later since he'll be suspended.

 

[cincygrad]

Here's the problem...those years you refer to are long gone, and are not coming back. I don't like it. You don't like it. I'd wager to say most NFL fans don't like it. None of that matters. The new way is here to stay, and it's only going to get worse for physical players like Burfict.

He either adapts, or he'll be out of the league sooner rather than later since he'll be suspended.

I think it sucks. As much as I hated it when Heinz Ward, Ray Lewis, or James Harrison hit one of our guys on the edge of 'clean,' I acknowledge that it changed the game. And made it harder to beat them.

It's hard to be a football fan.... There's a constant tension of guilt about head injuries and ridiculous rules that probably won't prevent head injury anyway. It's like watching a person that is 'quitting' smoking.... They are only smoking after dinner, or when they have a beer, or when it was a long day at work, etc., etc., etc. They never really quit until they quit completely. The NFL can't fix head injuries by making a thousand rules - Get rid of the helmets and pull flags. That's the only option.

 

[Cincyfan78]

I think it sucks. As much as I hated it when Heinz Ward, Ray Lewis, or James Harrison hit one of our guys on the edge of 'clean,' I acknowledge that it changed the game. And made it harder to beat them.

It's hard to be a football fan.... There's a constant tension of guilt about head injuries and ridiculous rules that probably won't prevent head injury anyway. It's like watching a person that is 'quitting' smoking.... They are only smoking after dinner, or when they have a beer, or when it was a long day at work, etc., etc., etc. They never really quit until they quit completely. The NFL can't fix head injuries by making a thousand rules - Get rid of the helmets and pull flags. That's the only option.

Oh, I agree. Those players, and guys like Rodney Harrison, were the epitome of "I hate them, but if they were on my team..." kind of guys/players.

Fortunately for them, they played in an era where that was allowed. Unfortunately for Burfict, he's playing in an era were those things are no longer allowed. Not only that, but plays that are even boarder line to the rules are going to be in question and potentially result in suspensions (based on potential past history). Fair or not, it's just how it is.

I agree. It sucks. Football is becoming less and less "football". If the league strikes, as they are talking about, over the next CBA, football may not recover to the heights of which they are enjoying now.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Oh, I agree. Those players, and guys like Rodney Harrison, were the epitome of "I hate them, but if they were on my team..." kind of guys/players.

Fortunately for them, they played in an era where that was allowed. Unfortunately for Burfict, he's playing in an era were those things are no longer allowed. Not only that, but plays that are even boarder line to the rules are going to be in question and potentially result in suspensions (based on potential past history). Fair or not, it's just how it is.

I agree. It sucks. Football is becoming less and less "football". If the league strikes, as they are talking about, over the next CBA, football may not recover to the heights of which they are enjoying now.

Burfict had one personal foul last year. I would say he is working on it, but when you suspend a guy for not doing anything against the rules, then you are only making it tougher for the enforcers to play ball fast. They have to give the opposing offensive player too much room, this way he can make the catch, get control, see he is going to get hit, and then protect himself.

You can't hit a guy high, you can't hit them low, you can't hit them in the chest unless the ball is coming to them. That 5 yard rule is supposed to give aggressive defensive players a chance. Burfict is a wrecking ball and hits with authority. I remember Ray Lewis doing this stuff all the time, him and Reed. Reed was an assassin in the middle of the field.

Wouldn't the play that Shazier made on Gio 2 years ago in that playoff game be more of a penalty? Crown of his helmet into the facemask of Gio? So the guy is in the 5 yard pocket, gets hit legally. Burfict didn't use his helmet, didn't hit that guy in the helmet, the other guy admitted it was a good clean hit, Burfict made sure he was okay on two different occasions, guy that got hit was not hurt in any way. So clean legal hit in the 5 yard pocket, guy doesn't get hurt, tells Burfict it was a good clean hit, and you are going to suspend Burfict for 5 games? It should have to be an illegal hit to even be considered suspend able.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Burfict had one personal foul last year. I would say he is working on it, but when you suspend a guy for not doing anything against the rules, then you are only making it tougher for the enforcers to play ball fast. They have to give the opposing offensive player too much room, this way he can make the catch, get control, see he is going to get hit, and then protect himself.

You can't hit a guy high, you can't hit them low, you can't hit them in the chest unless the ball is coming to them. That 5 yard rule is supposed to give aggressive defensive players a chance. Burfict is a wrecking ball and hits with authority. I remember Ray Lewis doing this stuff all the time, him and Reed. Reed was an assassin in the middle of the field.

Wouldn't the play that Shazier made on Gio 2 years ago in that playoff game be more of a penalty? Crown of his helmet into the facemask of Gio? So the guy is in the 5 yard pocket, gets hit legally. Burfict didn't use his helmet, didn't hit that guy in the helmet, the other guy admitted it was a good clean hit, Burfict made sure he was okay on two different occasions, guy that got hit was not hurt in any way. So clean legal hit in the 5 yard pocket, guy doesn't get hurt, tells Burfict it was a good clean hit, and you are going to suspend Burfict for 5 games? It should have to be an illegal hit to even be considered suspend able.

Again, you are choosing guys who played under a different set of rules to make a point. You can't. Guys like Lewis, and Harrison (Rodney and James), all played under different rules at the time. You can't compare them to what Burfict has done/is doing because the rules are now different. You don't have to like it (I don't) but it's just a fact.

The hit on Bernard was legal at the time. That hit changed the rule. It's now illegal.

Ryan Shazier playoff hit on Giovani Bernard now illegal

I agree the rules are definitely skewed towards the offensive player. There's no doubt about that. There's no argument there that it leaves the defensive player (especially guys like Burfict) at a major disadvantage with their aggressive style of play. Unfortunately, none of that matters. If the league deems that hit dirty, they will fine him. They have that power, and the players union gave the NFL (Goodell) that power.

And let's be honest...while the play wasn't necessarily illegal, it wasn't warranted, either. There wasn't any need for him to hit him like that at all. The ball was clearly not going to him, and you can just as easily disrupt a receiver running a route by bumping them off their route. Burfict unloaded on the guy, and it wasn't needed. These are exactly the kind of hits the NFL wants to clean up because of head injuries and such being such a topic around the world now.

I've said for years they need to do away with the personal foul penalty and change it to enforce sound tackling technique that is safe for, not only the offensive player, but the defender as well. It's as simple as requiring any defender to wrap-tackle. No matter how/where you hit an offensive player, if you wrap them up it can't be a fine. Conversely, if any defender launches themselves shoulder pads/helmet first without any attempt to wrap, it is a 15 yard penalty. Whether it is a WR in the act of catching, or even after he is established as a runner (so this would also apply to any RB, as a defender cannot launch into a RB).

Yes, it may take away a few of those good hits you see, but it's safer for everyone involved, and it really removes a lot of the gray area involved in what is "defenseless" or not. Now, this wouldn't really apply to this specific instance with Burfict, but it's (IMHO) a step in a better direction to allow defenders to still hit and not fear being penalized.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Also, Burfict may have only been flagged for 1 Personal Foul last year, but he did receive a few fines. 1 year of semi-decent behavior does not erase a long list of past indiscretions. He's got to learn to keep his nose clean, and keep it clean for a considerable amount of time to get his name removed from those who only view him as an egregious offender.

Fair or not, it is simply a fact.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Also, Burfict may have only been flagged for 1 Personal Foul last year, but he did receive a few fines. 1 year of semi-decent behavior does not erase a long list of past indiscretions. He's got to learn to keep his nose clean, and keep it clean for a considerable amount of time to get his name removed from those who only view him as an egregious offender.

Fair or not, it is simply a fact.

You make fair points in all areas. However, how do you tackle a RB launching himself into the air near the goal line? I just think 5 games is ridiculous. 2 games max, but more along the lines of 1 game since it was not an illegal hit for pete's sake. It was a legal hit. It just was. Warranted or not, it was legal. Did Shazier get penalized or fined or suspended for a hit that the next year they had to rewrite the rule book for, even though it was legal at the time? Nope.

Go ahead crack down on it. But 5 games is worse than Brady got for cheating and then covering it up. Guys get punished less for substance abuse on their first time, isn't that only 4 games?

I am not disagreeing with your argument, because I think you won the argument. What I now completely disagree with is the length of the punishment on a "legal" hit whether it was a necessary hit or not. You just simply can't suspend a guy for 5 games for a legal hit. Yes, it is Burfict, yes he has a past, but once again, warranted or not, he did nothing illegal. Fine him? Oh hell yes, teach him a lesson again on what is necessary and not necessary even though it was legal. But suspend him 5 games? Bullshit. They need to get real and write a punishment book that is standard, instead of just trying to make examples of repeat offenders constantly.

You do this: This amount of fine
You do this: This amount of suspension
You do this: Fined plus suspended
etc.

A pre-defined set up punishments based off infractions. If you did something not in that list of infractions, no penalty, no fine, no suspension. Plain and simple.

 

[Cincyfan78]

You make fair points in all areas. However, how do you tackle a RB launching himself into the air near the goal line? I just think 5 games is ridiculous. 2 games max, but more along the lines of 1 game since it was not an illegal hit for pete's sake. It was a legal hit. It just was. Warranted or not, it was legal. Did Shazier get penalized or fined or suspended for a hit that the next year they had to rewrite the rule book for, even though it was legal at the time? Nope.

Go ahead crack down on it. But 5 games is worse than Brady got for cheating and then covering it up. Guys get punished less for substance abuse on their first time, isn't that only 4 games?

I am not disagreeing with your argument, because I think you won the argument. What I now completely disagree with is the length of the punishment on a "legal" hit whether it was a necessary hit or not. You just simply can't suspend a guy for 5 games for a legal hit. Yes, it is Burfict, yes he has a past, but once again, warranted or not, he did nothing illegal. Fine him? Oh hell yes, teach him a lesson again on what is necessary and not necessary even though it was legal. But suspend him 5 games? Bullshit. They need to get real and write a punishment book that is standard, instead of just trying to make examples of repeat offenders constantly.

You do this: This amount of fine
You do this: This amount of suspension
You do this: Fined plus suspended
etc.

A pre-defined set up punishments based off infractions. If you did something not in that list of infractions, no penalty, no fine, no suspension. Plain and simple.

You'll get not argument for me on the length. I've stated previously, I think in the next CBA the players need to push for a tiered system of punishment. They will never get the power away from Goodell, but they can limit what he can do by installing a tiered system that is hard and fast.

If you are penalized for this infraction it leads to this fine (and the fine should be as a % of contract, not a flat amount since all players make different amounts). Or, it leads to this many games based on number of infractions.

Totally agree that the current system in which Goodell simply decides an arbitrary number, is inadequate for the league and the number of problems they face. They need to have a better system to ensure that all players get treated fairly, and under the same "rules".

 

[kramer1]

The NFL is a joke anyways. Fake as shit.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

I think when you are suspended, you do not receive a pay check for that amount of games you are suspended. So it is basically tiered based off players contract. Because if one guy makes $1 million a game and another guy makes $100k a game, then a 4 game suspension would definitely be more for the better contract player. Otherwise, guys are fined based on what they did. You don't have a big contract, I really suggest playing by the rules because you can't afford to get a huge fine for stupid stuff. I think it needs to be standard across the board, not %, unless it comes to suspension, because then you lose game checks which are considerably more. So hopefully these young guys with smaller contracts to start their careers, hopefully they learn to do things the right way to begin with because they can't afford the fines.

 

[DanBengalfan]

at least he should stay healthy for 5 weeks right?