My current framing of the MJ vs LeBron debate

[dtgold88]

Yeah, this lacks a lot of context...

Lebron didn't have college experience because he was good enough coming out of high school to go directly to the NBA. Bird wasn't.

Bird didn't enter the NBA until he was 23 because after accepting a scholarship to Indiana, he dropped out after 1 month because he couldn't handle a large college campus. He returned to French Lick where he enrolled at Northwood Institute and worked municipal jobs for a year before going to Indiana State where played for 3 years. So, not entering the NBA until he was 23 was his own doing (Magic entered at 19 after 2 years at Michigan St.).

As @tlance pointed out, Magic, Bird and MJ were drafted by organizations who wanted to win titles and acquired the players and coaches that were necessary for that to happen, so there was no real incentive for them to leave. They weren't going to find better situations to win titles than they were already in. Lebron was drafted by Cleveland.

Additionally, as tlance also pointed out, the rules around free agency were far different and while they didn't exactly stop players moving, it hindered it far more than todays rules. The fact is, we don't know what MJ, Magic and Bird would have done because the FA rules were very different and they were drafted into far better situations.

So yes, it is unfair to use "those other all timers stayed" to downgrade Lebron.

For some odd reason, folks want to put Lebron into no win situations where...had he stayed in Cleveland and never won a title...folks would say he "couldn't lead teams to titles". He moves to better situations so that he can lead teams to titles and gets criticized because he wanted to win titles and went to teams willing to surround him with what he needed to win.

And, before you try the "superteams" argument...the Showtime Lakers, Bird Celtics and MJ Bulls were all superteams...for that matter, so were the early 80's Sixers.

agree with all this though not to say Miami was "willing to surround" Lebron with more talent. First, him committing would have helped bring guys here.....second and more important, didn't Miami kind of need to tank in order to be able to add Lebron and Bosh as max FAs? I don;t think tanking with him here was an option. also think when the 3 of them were planning where to go I'm not sure what the Cavs could have done to compete with South Beach for young, rich guys.

And, had he stayed there would have been even more reason for the Cavs to make the deal that brought Kyrie to town.

 

[msgkings322]

agree with all this though not to say Miami was "willing to surround" Lebron with more talent. First, him committing would have helped bring guys here.....second and more important, didn't Miami kind of need to tank in order to be able to add Lebron and Bosh as max FAs? I don;t think tanking with him here was an option. also think when the 3 of them were planning where to go I'm not sure what the Cavs could have done to compete with South Beach for young, rich guys.

And, had he stayed there would have been even more reason for the Cavs to make the deal that brought Kyrie to town.

 

[dtgold88]

I do remember when watching that - after cracking up - thinking too bad in real world he couldn't get his friends on board with that line of thinking.

 

[msgkings322]

I do remember when watching that - after cracking up - thinking too bad in real world he couldn't get his friends on board with that line of thinking.

I liked that movie, and LeBron was fun in it.

 

[fightinfunbags]

Draymond Green must be your favorite player today

If Jordan had had Twitter I bet he'd have been on there petty as fuck

He was petty as fuck through the Last Dance. Couldn’t agree more.

 

[SJ76]

Draymond Green must be your favorite player today

If Jordan had had Twitter I bet he'd have been on there petty as fuck

Wrong and ok. I got to go with Steph

 

[msgkings322]

Wrong and ok. I got to go with Steph

He never fouls anyone hard though, or gets in fights.

 

[SJ76]

He never fouls anyone hard though, or gets in fights.

You boys act like some girls on here.

I said the game was more physical back then. Lol that’s all

Steph is just fun to watch

 

[SJ76]

 

[msgkings322]

You boys act like some girls on here.

I said the game was more physical back then. Lol that’s all

Steph is just fun to watch

And I replied that there are still players who play that physical style, but I bet you don't like those players.

Steph is indeed fun to watch, That 2017 team was as fun a team as I've seen since MJ's Bulls, tons of passing/assists, great defense, shooters everywhere.

 

[SJ76]

And I replied that there are still players who play that physical style, but I bet you don't like those players.

Steph is indeed fun to watch, That 2017 team was as fun a team as I've seen since MJ's Bulls, tons of passing/assists, great defense, shooters everywhere.

I don’t dislike Dray. Loved him when he played for Izzo. He got dramatic tho

 

[broncosmitty]

I don’t dislike Dray. Loved him when he played for Izzo. He got dramatic tho

He’s played the exact same way since HS.

Only difference now is he’s in shape. Was a dough boy as a kid.

And yeah, easily my favorite player. Bron prolly #2. No offense to Isaiah Stewart.

 

[broncosmitty]

Praise Magic and Bird all you want.

Just maybe stop using staying with 1 team as a reason to downgrade LeBron.

How am I downgrading a dude I view as the second best player ever?

Really don’t understand what you’ve taken umbrage with.

 

[SJ76]

He’s played the exact same way since HS.

Only difference now is he’s in shape. Was a dough boy as a kid.

And yeah, easily my favorite player. Bron prolly #2. No offense to Isaiah Stewart.

He listened to Izzo tho. Fo sho

 

[broncosmitty]

He listened to Izzo tho. Fo sho

And Izzo listened to him.

As fun of a player/duo to watch scream at each other during games as I’ve ever seen.

 

[tlance]

How am I downgrading a dude I view as the second best player ever?

Really don’t understand what you’ve taken umbrage with.

Might not have even been you.

But someone said the team hopping thing was the reason he couldn’t be on MJ’s level.

Not a valid reason.

Because I bet MJ would have hopped too had he been in LeBron’s shoes.

He didn’t have to.

 

[broncosmitty]

Might not have even been you.

But someone said the team hopping thing was the reason he couldn’t be on MJ’s level.

Not a valid reason.

Because I bet MJ would have hopped too had he been in LeBron’s shoes.

He didn’t have to.

MJ quit/retired twice and left for Washington on his own accord.

I definitely mentioned how MJs Wizard days did nothing for his legacy. But LeBrons moving around has allowed him to continue building his.

 

[rmilia1]

How do you put Kareem over LeBron? Kareem's case was longevity, scoring title, etc.

Kareem is the best HS player ever

The best college player ever

His NBA resume is as good or better than James statistically and he's got more rings

Personal accolades are similar but when you factor everything in from their entire careers KAJs resume is superior

 

[tlance]

MJ quit/retired twice and left for Washington on his own accord.

I definitely mentioned how MJs Wizard days did nothing for his legacy. But LeBrons moving around has allowed him to continue building his.

Yeah, I honestly don’t know who said.

I will never take issue with someone ranking MJ ahead of LeBron. I have it as a 1A 1B level tie.

I believe it is extremely close. Can’t fault someone for picking 1 over the other.

But there are some reasons that are plain weak. That is one.

 

[tlance]

Kareem is the best HS player ever

The best college player ever

His NBA resume is as good or better than James statistically and he's got more rings

Personal accolades are similar but when you factor everything in from their entire careers KAJs resume is superior

Nah.

Stuff before NBA is mostly irrelevant to this conversation.

Both were amazing high school players. LeBron obviously faced far higher levels of competition in high school playing a national schedule in a modern era.

What they accomplished as boys has no bearing on who was best as a man playing against other men.

And if LeBron played 3-4 years of college, I am betting that would have been pretty legendary.