My current framing of the MJ vs LeBron debate

[trojanfan12]

Walton was one of the best centers.

In college...he certainly was.

In the NBA, he was as well...for about 10 minutes...then his feet fell off.

 

[Jordan23]

Yeah Walton was not as good as Barkley, let’s just go ahead and drop that BS

 

[trojanfan12]

Yeah Walton was not as good as Barkley, let’s just go ahead and drop that BS

To be fair, had his feet held together, Walton not only would have been better than Barkley, he would be top 10 and maybe top 5 of all time.

Unfortunately, he didn't get the opportunity.

 

[broncosmitty]

What I am saying is that the circumstance surrounding the players in the 80s compared to the last 15 years is about as different as comparing and NBA player to an NFL player in terms of power and leverage.

It is just a completely different world.

Knocking LeBron for moving while propping up greats from past eras who didn’t is disingenuous.

Really don’t understand why it’s such a big deal I praise Magic and Bird. But whatever.

 

[broncosmitty]

Yeah, this lacks a lot of context...

Lebron didn't have college experience because he was good enough coming out of high school to go directly to the NBA. Bird wasn't.

Bird didn't enter the NBA until he was 23 because after accepting a scholarship to Indiana, he dropped out after 1 month because he couldn't handle a large college campus. He returned to French Lick where he enrolled at Northwood Institute and worked municipal jobs for a year before going to Indiana State where played for 3 years. So, not entering the NBA until he was 23 was his own doing (Magic entered at 19 after 2 years at Michigan St.).

As @tlance pointed out, Magic, Bird and MJ were drafted by organizations who wanted to win titles and acquired the players and coaches that were necessary for that to happen, so there was no real incentive for them to leave. They weren't going to find better situations to win titles than they were already in. Lebron was drafted by Cleveland.

Additionally, as tlance also pointed out, the rules around free agency were far different and while they didn't exactly stop players moving, it hindered it far more than todays rules. The fact is, we don't know what MJ, Magic and Bird would have done because the FA rules were very different and they were drafted into far better situations.

So yes, it is unfair to use "those other all timers stayed" to downgrade Lebron.

For some odd reason, folks want to put Lebron into no win situations where...had he stayed in Cleveland and never won a title...folks would say he "couldn't lead teams to titles". He moves to better situations so that he can lead teams to titles and gets criticized because he wanted to win titles and went to teams willing to surround him with what he needed to win.

And, before you try the "superteams" argument...the Showtime Lakers, Bird Celtics and MJ Bulls were all superteams...for that matter, so were the early 80's Sixers.

Ok

 

[broncosmitty]

Yeah Walton was not as good as Barkley, let’s just go ahead and drop that BS

Wrong

 

[tlance]

Really don’t understand why it’s such a big deal I praise Magic and Bird. But whatever.

Praise Magic and Bird all you want.

Just maybe stop using staying with 1 team as a reason to downgrade LeBron.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Wrong

I think if the argument is if you could get prime Walton for a 7 game series or prime Barkley who would you take....

but even in his prime years his best total games was 65. so his absolute high point he still missed like 20 percent of their games.

The singular season he managed to stay healthy through the playoffs he led Portland to a title. He then proceeded to get hurt in the playoffs the next year and was never the same.

So...I see both sides of this argument. But Walton did do something Barkley never did even fully healthy

 

[fightinfunbags]

And I would have love to see Rodman check KD especially after his make believe Twitter account.

So would I. I’d love to see how Rodman is as a defender in the modern game with floor spacing and he gets taken away from the basket more often in this era. He likely adapts well but the game is different. The particular player you called out, KD, would likely be able to shoot over him in a bunch of instances. That’s the piece that makes KD unguardable. At any time, he can pull up and shoot over his cover. Few guys have been able to harass him and get KD off his game because of that huge advantage.

It’s really difficult to project guys into different eras of the game.

 

[SJ76]

So would I. I’d love to see how Rodman is as a defender in the modern game with floor spacing and he gets taken away from the basket more often in this era. He likely adapts well but the game is different. The particular player you called out, KD, would likely be able to shoot over him in a bunch of instances. That’s the piece that makes KD unguardable. At any time, he can pull up and shoot over his cover. Few guys have been able to harass him and get KD off his game because of that huge advantage.

It’s really difficult to project guys into different eras of the game.

Eras are difficult. But the worm was a genius at getting in peoples head. Great defenders or players adapt for sure

 

[trojanfan12]

Eras are difficult. But the worm was a genius at getting in peoples head. Great defenders or players adapt for sure

Definitely. That's why I find it funny when folks say things like "Lebron couldn't handle how physical the game was". Dude is a bigger, stronger, faster version of Magic in Karl Malones body.

As I posted before...if you hot tub time machine him back to the 90's, it would take him a minute to adjust, but he would adjust. If he grew up with that style, no adjustment necessary.

 

[SJ76]

Definitely. That's why I find it funny when folks say things like "Lebron couldn't handle how physical the game was". Dude is a bigger, stronger, faster version of Magic in Karl Malones body.

As I posted before...if you hot tub time machine him back to the 90's, it would take him a minute to adjust, but he would adjust. If he grew up with that style, no adjustment necessary.

That’s why it’s hard to do eras. Mindset was different vs today. Toughness overall as well

 

[trojanfan12]

That’s why it’s hard to do eras. Mindset was different vs today. Toughness overall as well

Yep, and it applies both ways. Hot tub time machine 90's players to todays game, they're going to struggle with the pace and not being able to defend the way they did in the 90's. But, they would adjust and be fine. Great players will always find ways to be great.

 

[fightinfunbags]

That’s why it’s hard to do eras. Mindset was different vs today. Toughness overall as well

This is without a doubt the gayest shit people say when they romanticize different eras. The comment has no validity. It just rings like an old man talking about walking to school uphill through the snow for miles.

Gayer than Richard Simmons and a bag of dicks. Go tell Pat Bev to his face that he isn’t tough. You leave that exchange in tears.

 

[SJ76]

This is without a doubt the gayest shit people say when they romanticize different eras. The comment has no validity. It just rings like an old man talking about walking to school uphill through the snow for miles.

Gayer than Richard Simmons and a bag of dicks. Go tell Pat Bev to his face that he isn’t tough. You leave that exchange in tears.

View attachment 355187

Dam you went hard gay and quick. They don’t let them hand check any more. No hard fouls. No fights.

Today we have superstars setting up fake twitters. More flops. More points being scored by far. Yeah it’s funny


Facts

 

[trojanfan12]

This is without a doubt the gayest shit people say when they romanticize different eras. The comment has no validity. It just rings like an old man talking about walking to school uphill through the snow for miles.

Gayer than Richard Simmons and a bag of dicks. Go tell Pat Bev to his face that he isn’t tough. You leave that exchange in tears.

View attachment 355187

For the record, for me it was walking uphill in the snow both ways with nothing but a cold pancake in my pocket for lunch.

 

[msgkings322]

Dam you went hard gay and quick. They don’t let them hand check any more. No hard fouls. No fights.

Draymond Green must be your favorite player today

Today we have superstars setting up fake twitters. More flops. More points being scored by far. Yeah it’s funny


Facts

If Jordan had had Twitter I bet he'd have been on there petty as fuck

 

[dtgold88]

Sure it is.

Huge apples and oranges situation.

Put Bird in LeBron’s situation drafted by Cleveland with little around him.

He stays there, he wins nothing and he is another Karl Malone. Great player, but not in this conversation.

Great point......also cannot even say he at least knows he has enough to get to the Finals as no chance Bird drags that group to the Finals. Don;t mean to knock Bird as was a huge fan of his but I just don't see it.

 

[dtgold88]

Sure and playing only in one place has its own value, like winning everywhere you go (Larry Brown comes to mind as my pick for GOAT coach)

we've always been in agreement on Larry Brown, I think......just love the fact that unlike most coaches who run from challenges (unless no other option) Brown seems like he only wants to take on a challenge.

 

[msgkings322]

we've always been in agreement on Larry Brown, I think......just love the fact that unlike most coaches who run from challenges (unless no other option) Brown seems like he only wants to take on a challenge.

Right, that plus winning at all stops, a college and pro title, the pro title the only one with no big stars on the team, took Iverson and a bunch of trash to the finals, etc.

Like any GOAT debate there's no way to 'prove' it, depends what you value. It's more realistic to make a case for the 3-5 best ever. For coaches that would probably be Brown, Pop, Jackson, Riley, maybe Spoelstra eventually