How would this team be if....

[caleyear01]

Hey if you guys don't remember me I am from the ESPN forums from long time ago. If Gortat was still on this team would this team still be as successful? Same with Shannon Brown. What do you guys think?

 

[The Derski]

Hey another Suns/Packers fan!

I think the biggest difference to this team has been the coaching. Hornacek has these guys playing hard and as a team. I for one thought the Morris brothers wouldn't do anything but both of them are tremendous of the bench. I think Gerald Green is the same type of player as Brown but Green has had more of an impact than Brown ever did. Plumlee has been a pleasant surprise as well. In the long run he could become a very solid player who can average a double double. So again I think it has more to do with the way Hornacek is running things. Last season was pitiful.

 

[caleyear01]

Hey another Suns/Packers fan!

I think the biggest difference to this team has been the coaching. Hornacek has these guys playing hard and as a team. I for one thought the Morris brothers wouldn't do anything but both of them are tremendous of the bench. I think Gerald Green is the same type of player as Brown but Green has had more of an impact than Brown ever did. Plumlee has been a pleasant surprise as well. In the long run he could become a very solid player who can average a double double. So again I think it has more to do with the way Hornacek is running things. Last season was pitiful.

Agreed. Actually now that I think about it if Gortat and Brown were still on the team I don't think it would make much a difference. The Morris twins were horrible last season. They played with no passion and didn't hustle at all on defense or getting rebounds. I guess it has to do with Hornacek because everything turned around when he came to Phoenix. Also if you think about it Gortat is a better Center then Plumlee and I guess I could say Brown is a better Shooting Guard then Barbosa (for this team) because of his play making in transition. I honestly wish these guys were still on the team because I want to know if it would have worked out or not.

I remember on the ESPN forums a while back I mentioned that the Suns can make the playoffs with the roster they have it was just the coaching and everybody called me an idiot. So I guess the question now is if Hornacek was the head coach of the Suns last season (Gortat, Scola, Beasley, Dudley and Dragic were the starters) do you think they could have made the playoffs? Hornacek turned the Morris twins around so I can assume he could have turned Wesley Johnson around as well into playing just like the Morris twins now. So what do you think. And yes the Packers are awesome!!!

 

[Arizona_Sting]

Welcome, sir! Gortat's departure has freed up more time for Plumlee, Frye and Markieff so I don't think him being on the team would be that much of an upgrade over any of those guys to be honest. He just doesn't really fit in with this team. Never has.

Brown is a non-factor basically. I'd rather play Goodwin or Barbosa than him. Bad shot selection and he was pretty selfish in his short time here.

Better off without em.

 

[caleyear01]

Welcome, sir! Gortat's departure has freed up more time for Plumlee, Frye and Markieff so I don't think him being on the team would be that much of an upgrade over any of those guys to be honest. He just doesn't really fit in with this team. Never has.

Brown is a non-factor basically. I'd rather play Goodwin or Barbosa than him. Bad shot selection and he was pretty selfish in his short time here.

Better off without em.

Yes I understand that Gortat's departure has freed up more time for Plumlee but what I am trying to figure out here is if Gortat was playing instead of Plumlee would the Suns be better. He can grab rebounds, his mid range game is better than Plumlee's (which spaces the court more), is better on defense and can run in transition. He is pretty much an upgraded Plumlee. Heck I don't even know ahahahaha and you're probably right about Brown as well, I just wanted to see Brown and Green play together.

 

[GMATCa]

Agreed. Actually now that I think about it if Gortat and Brown were still on the team I don't think it would make much a difference. The Morris twins were horrible last season. They played with no passion and didn't hustle at all on defense or getting rebounds. I guess it has to do with Hornacek because everything turned around when he came to Phoenix. Also if you think about it Gortat is a better Center then Plumlee and I guess I could say Brown is a better Shooting Guard then Barbosa (for this team) because of his play making in transition. I honestly wish these guys were still on the team because I want to know if it would have worked out or not.

I remember on the ESPN forums a while back I mentioned that the Suns can make the playoffs with the roster they have it was just the coaching and everybody called me an idiot. So I guess the question now is if Hornacek was the head coach of the Suns last season (Gortat, Scola, Beasley, Dudley and Dragic were the starters) do you think they could have made the playoffs? Hornacek turned the Morris twins around so I can assume he could have turned Wesley Johnson around as well into playing just like the Morris twins now. So what do you think. And yes the Packers are awesome!!!

... probably not. Dragic still had some growing to do and hadn't previously spent anywhere near a full season as a starting point guard. Beasley was bad for chemistry and in a starting role, his game proved too inefficient. Scola didn't stretch the defense as far as Frye or even the Morris twins, and overall that lineup was too nonathletic (by NBA standards, obviously). Indeed, Dragic didn't possess anyone to run with him.

As for Gortat, Plumlee strikes me as a cheaper, younger, hungrier, more athletic version of Gortat. Obviously, Gortat is more experienced and somewhat more polished, but he's a mechanical center. Shannon Brown, meanwhile, was a gunner who didn't shoot the ball well, a contradiction in terms. Like Beasley, he proved too inefficient and was, at best, probably a 'zero sum' player. Wesley Johnson, meanwhile, is at best a less athletic version of Gerald Green and he fails to create the matchup problems of the Morris twins.

In my opinion, the Suns aren't missing anything from last year's roster. They're now a faster, younger, rangier, and more complementary.

 

[GMATCa]

Yes I understand that Gortat's departure has freed up more time for Plumlee but what I am trying to figure out here is if Gortat was playing instead of Plumlee would the Suns be better. He can grab rebounds, his mid range game is better than Plumlee's (which spaces the court more), is better on defense and can run in transition. He is pretty much an upgraded Plumlee. Heck I don't even know ahahahaha and you're probably right about Brown as well, I just wanted to see Brown and Green play together.

Why is Gortat's defense better? I don't know what his defense has been like in Washington, but he certainly didn't improve the Suns' defense from an empirical (i.e. points allowed per possession) basis. Indeed, even Washington's defense has been slightly worse this year compared to last season.

2013-14 Washington Wizards Roster and Stats | Basketball-Reference.com

2012-13 Washington Wizards Roster and Stats | Basketball-Reference.com

Conversely, this season with Plumlee, the Suns have been about an average defensive team for the first time in six seasons.

And I'd say that Plumlee runs the court better than Gortat; I don't see the issue there.

Gortat, to me, is an average center, not worth fretting over. He enjoyed a career year in 2012 due to the combination of the D'Antoni/Gentry offense, Nash's orchestration of it, and the floor spacing created by Channing Frye's presence, but the Suns remained bad defensively (twenty-fourth in points allowed per possession), were not elite offensively (ninth in points scored per possession, which is very good yet not in the top quarter of teams) and still did not make the playoffs. For some reason (maybe because the franchise had been so starved for a legitimate center), Phoenix fans tended to overrate him. I'll quote a professional scouting report on Gortat from the eve of this season:

Marcin Gortat is their starting center, but I view him as a backup. Against a legit center, he is going to struggle. He has a couple of moves on the block and he can run the floor. He can finish off pick-and-rolls. He is more an offensive center who puts up good numbers on a bad team.

Phoenix Suns NBA season preview from opposing team's scout - NBA - SI.com

Granted, the scout that Sports Illustrated quoted the previous year proved more complementary:

I'm surprised that Gortat has turned out to so effective. I loved him as a backup in Orlando, but I didn't think he was good enough to be a starter. Now at his salary [$7.3 million this season], he's a bargain. He rolls hard every time and it's effective. He and Dragic are going to be great at the pick-and-roll, even without Frye stretching the floor. Gortat is a top-10 center. He's more of a threat offensively than guys like Tyson Chandler or Joakim Noah. He's not a great athlete, but he's similar to Scola as a crafty big who is strong and plays his butt off. He doesn't have any shooting range, but he does what he's supposed to do. He's a great help defender and he'll block a shot, though he's not particularly great at that.


Suns*2012-13 NBA season preview from scout - NBA - SI.com

Obviously, I concur with the first quotation, although the rest of the scout's comments at the second link are very wise, especially in terms of Frye's presence.

And remember that judging a non-star based on his career year can result in a faulty assessment, especially when that career year resulted in neither team defensive improvement, nor elite offense, nor a playoff berth.

 

[GMATCa]

Hey another Suns/Packers fan!

I think the biggest difference to this team has been the coaching. Hornacek has these guys playing hard and as a team. I for one thought the Morris brothers wouldn't do anything but both of them are tremendous of the bench. I think Gerald Green is the same type of player as Brown but Green has had more of an impact than Brown ever did. Plumlee has been a pleasant surprise as well. In the long run he could become a very solid player who can average a double double. So again I think it has more to do with the way Hornacek is running things. Last season was pitiful.

The difference is that Green is much taller, even more athletic, and can get his shot off very easily, thus rendering him a far more efficient scorer. His True Shooting Percentage this season is .575 (mainly a product of his volume and efficiency on threes), compared to Brown's .493 last season.

I think that the improvement represents a combination of McDonough's roster changes and Hornacek's coaching.

 

[Damntoni]

This team would be better if the great Amare Stoudemire was still playing the Suns.

You guys blew it and now he'll wear a Knicks jersey in the NBA hall of fame.

 

[The Derski]

This team would be better if the great Amare Stoudemire was still playing the Suns.

You guys blew it and now he'll wear a Knicks jersey in the NBA hall of fame.

 

[Arizona_Sting]

This team would be better if the great Amare Stoudemire was still playing the Suns.

You guys blew it and now he'll wear a Knicks jersey in the NBA hall of fame.

Anyone that can make me lol that hard deserves a thumbs up