Consensus All-Time Giants Team

[calsnowskier]

That certainly cleaned up the pitching, both the SPs and the BP.

I don't know how easily you could do this with your data and methodology, but I would be curious, for the everyday players, if you looked at the top 25 or even 50 seasons for each position, then look who had the most for each. The outfield won't likely change, but the infield could be interesting. There's something to be said if a player can come up with 6 or 8 of the top seasons, versus only having 1 or 2.

I'm not sure we've had a dominant 2B, SS, or 3B for a longer career, at least offensively.

Maybe do a Giants WAR3 or something like that. I think that would return a pretty good dataset.

 

[LHG]

That certainly cleaned up the pitching, both the SPs and the BP.

I don't know how easily you could do this with your data and methodology, but I would be curious, for the everyday players, if you looked at the top 25 or even 50 seasons for each position, then look who had the most for each. The outfield won't likely change, but the infield could be interesting. There's something to be said if a player can come up with 6 or 8 of the top seasons, versus only having 1 or 2.

I'm not sure we've had a dominant 2B, SS, or 3B for a longer career, at least offensively.

I was starting to track for all seasons with an OPS+ of 100 or greater but scrapped it in favor of just looking at top 5 for position players and top 5 for 5 rotation spots and 7 bullpen spots.

From what I remember seeing, there are not much difference when you expand the list to top 10 but I may have time to do that tomorrow, just to see if there is a trend. I think that there will be a lot more 1 offs at 2nd, short and 3rd.

 

[LHG]

Maybe do a Giants WAR3 or something like that. I think that would return a pretty good dataset.

It is a lot easier, at least with what I'm using, to just go with OPS+. There is probably an easier way, but from what I know, doing a WAR3 would require looking at each player individually and that would take a looooooooooong time with a franchise that is over 150 years old.

 

[calsnowskier]

I have no idea if it is still a thing, but as of about 20 years or so ago, there was a freeware access DB that had all MLB raw stats that anyone could use to create their own analytics from. I DLed it at one time and had a blast mining the f out of it.

 

[LHG]

I'll still go through top seasons based on OPS+ and ERA+ but here is another list to consider, top 24 players from the Giants' franchise, based on WAR (only with the Giants, maybe this is what you are looking for @calsnowskier ):
1. Willie Mays - 154.5
2. Barry Bonds - 112.5
3. Mel Ott - 110.8
4. Christy Mathewson - 106.7
5. Carl Hubbell - 68.5
6. Amos Rusie - 67.4
7. Juan Marichal - 63.5
8. Willie McCovey - 59.4
9. Bill Terry - 56.5
10. Roger Connor - 53
11. Mickey Welch - 51.5
12. Buster Posey - 44.8
13. George Davis - 44.6
14. Travis Jackson - 44
15. Larry Doyle - 42.7
16. Art Fletcher - 42.3
17. Mike Tiernan - 41.5
18. Bobby Bonds - 38.1
19. Frankie Frisch - 38
20. Madison Bumgarner - 37.5
21. George Burns - 36.4
22. Will Clark - 35.8
23. Tim Keefe - 34.5
24. Gaylord Perry - 34.4

The problem with this list is that there are no relief pitchers and a bit too many outfielders and 1st basemen. Do you take the pitchers past the 5th guy and make them bullpen based on this list? I'd rather go with my original idea for building an all time roster.

 

[calsnowskier]

I'll still go through top seasons based on OPS+ and ERA+ but here is another list to consider, top 24 players from the Giants' franchise, based on WAR (only with the Giants, maybe this is what you are looking for @calsnowskier ):
1. Willie Mays - 154.5
2. Barry Bonds - 112.5
3. Mel Ott - 110.8
4. Christy Mathewson - 106.7
5. Carl Hubbell - 68.5
6. Amos Rusie - 67.4
7. Juan Marichal - 63.5
8. Willie McCovey - 59.4
9. Bill Terry - 56.5
10. Roger Connor - 53
11. Mickey Welch - 51.5
12. Buster Posey - 44.8
13. George Davis - 44.6
14. Travis Jackson - 44
15. Larry Doyle - 42.7
16. Art Fletcher - 42.3
17. Mike Tiernan - 41.5
18. Bobby Bonds - 38.1
19. Frankie Frisch - 38
20. Madison Bumgarner - 37.5
21. George Burns - 36.4
22. Will Clark - 35.8
23. Tim Keefe - 34.5
24. Gaylord Perry - 34.4

The problem with this list is that there are no relief pitchers and a bit too many outfielders and 1st basemen. Do you take the pitchers past the 5th guy and make them bullpen based on this list? I'd rather go with my original idea for building an all time roster.

It is kinda what I was referencing, but I specifically like WAR# over straight WAR because it emphasizes a peak over accumulation.

 

[LHG]

I expanded my search to encompass top 10 OPS+ for each position, top 50 ERA+ for starting pitchers (minimum 100 IP) and top 70 ERA+ for relief pitchers (minimum 50 IP or 50 games). Here is what I found:
Catcher - Buster Posey had the single greatest offensive season as a catcher, in the history of the franchise, in 2012, based on this metric. He also landed the 8th spot in 2014. Incredibly, he doesn't have the most top 10 spots. That goes to Buck Ewing (2nd - 1888, 3rd - 1885 and 7th - 1883. Plus he landed in top 10 for 3rd baseman with his 1887 season). All other spots were one hit wonders. However, special mention for Jack Meyers. He placed 5th in his 1912 season and had two others that just missed the top 10.
Verdict: I'll let recency bias color my pick and go with Buster Posey. However, Buck Ewing makes a strong show to be the number 1 guy. Incredible that the Giants went over 100 years between strong, durable starting catchers (almost exactly 100 if you count Meyers).
1st Base - This one is also a bit surprising. I think most people would assume Willie McCovey would be a slam dunk, with Will Clark in 2nd. Not so. Roger Connor claims the 2nd, 4th, 7th and 10th spots for this position. His 1884 season was at 2nd base and landed him the 7th spot there. Additionally, his 1882 season with the Troy Trojans would land 4th (pushing the other spots back 1) at 1st base and his 1880 season with them at 3rd base would be good for the 3rd best in the franchise's history. I consider the Troy squad to be the start of the Giants history but that is for another thread.
Willie McCovey does have the best season, by OPS+, for a 1st baseman in his 1969 season. He also claims the 5th and 9th spots. Will Clark only has one top 10 season and it is ranked 8th (for comparison, Brandon Belt's 2020 season ranks 6th on the list).
Verdict: Another tough choice but I give it to McCovey, by a nose, with Connor his backup.
2nd Base - This is also a two man race but the winner is a bit more clear. Jeff Kent had the 2nd, 4th and 8th spots while Larry Doyle had the 3rd, 5th and 9th spots.
Verdict: Kent with Doyle as backup.
Shortstop - As much as I want to pick Brandon Crawford for this team, his 2021 (5th) was the only one to place in the top 10. There are two players who got multiple spots at this position: George Davis (4th, 6th) and Travis Jackson (7th and 9th).
Verdict: Davis with Jackson as backup.
3rd Base - As you may already have guessed, this position is a hodge podge of players. To further illustrate that, Mel Ott holds the best season of any 3rd baseman in the one year he played that position as the primary guy. With all the odd players in this group, only one players holds multiple spots in the top 10 and it isn't Matt Williams. It is Pablo Sandoval (4th and 9th). Special shout out to Jim Ray Hart (5th), who had a 3 year run that were all nearly identical to each other in OPS+ but fell just outside the top 10.
Verdict: Sandoval. No need for a backup. Ewing, Davis and Ott have got this spot covered.
Leftfield - The problem here isn't who would be the starter. That is obvious. Barry Bonds has 9 of the top 10 seasons covered (Kevin Mitchell's 1989 season is good for 6th place). Who backs him up on the roster? Mitchell?
Verdict: Bonds Maybe Mitchell as backup, making another guy who can cover 3rd base.
Centerfield - Yet another dominant performance, this time by the Say Hey Kid, Willie Mays. He also claimed 9 of the 10 spots, with the only outsider being Mike Donlin (7th). Donlin was a fairly dominant player for a time in the 1st decade of the 1900s but not nearly on the level as Mays.
Verdict: Mays. Donlin as backup.
Rightfield - Mel Ott is the man at this spot, but not nearly as dominant as the other two outfield spots. He merely claims 8 of the top 10 spots on this list. Jack Clark (2nd), Mike Yastrzemski (9th) and Mike Tiernan (10th) round out the top 10. Hunter Pence doesn't even get close. Tiernan has more just outside the top 10 than Pence does.
Verdict: Ott. Tiernan possibly as backup but Donlin may nudge him out.
Starting Rotation - With so many pitchers appearing multiple times, I've scored them with an aggregate score by adding their ranks and dividing by the number of times that they are ranked.
Christy Mathewson is the one with the most placements on the top 50 (with an incredible 8 appearances!). However, he only has the 3rd highest score (18.5) of the multiple starting pitchers. One guy who is higher is Tim Keefe (18), a starter from the late 1800s. His career started with the Trojans and, if you count his best season with them (modified score of 13), he would be considered the one to have thrown the best year for a starting pitcher, by measure of ERA+ The other guy with a higher score, the highest score (13.5) of this group, is Tim Lincecum. He also appeared only twice but they were the 10th and 17th best seasons. Other starters with more than two appearances are Carl Hubbell (5 total - 21.4 score), Juan Marichal (4 total - 23.25 score) and Amos Rusie (3 total - 23.3 score). Rounding out this group are Bill Walker (29) and Mickey Welch (34.5)
Verdict: I'm going to be build mainly on durability. The rotation would be Mathewson, Hubbell, Marichal and Rusie as the front 4. The 5th guy was down to Lincecum and Keefe but I went with Lincecum, due to his brilliance in that short period of his career. Hey, 5th starters can be interchangeable, right?
Bullpen - A total of 16 pitchers showed up at least twice in the top 70 group. They are, in order of score: Frank Linzy (2, 12.5); Robb Nen (3, 16); Javier Lopez (2, 21.5); Sergio Romo (3, 25); Marv Grissom (2, 26); Greg Minton (2, 26.5); Santiago Casilla (4, 29.75); Felix Rodriguez (2, 31); Rod Beck (2, 34); Brian Wilson (2, 38.5); Jeremy Affeldt (2, 39.5); Hoyt Wilhelm (2, 48); George Kontos (2, 51); Randy Moffitt (2, 53.5); Huner Strickland (2, 54.5); and Dave Heaverlo (2, 59).
Verdict: I am going with an 8 man bullpen, mainly because its hard to eliminate so many pitchers. I'll award durability first, going with Nen, Romo and Casilla since they all had more than 2 appearances on this list. Linzy has really good for 2 seasons and had a couple more good ones, so he makes the list. I then went with Grissom, Minton, Rodriguez and Beck. I skipped Lopez because he threw so few innings. How many of these other guys would make more appearances on this list if they were used as a LOOGY (or ROOGY) to the extent Lopez was used. Controversial, I know, but that is how I'll role. Its hard to remove him, Wilson, Affeldt and Wilhelm especially.

So, to summarize, this is my all Giants (Gothams, Trojans) team:
Catcher (2) - Posey, Ewing
1st Base (2) - McCovey, Connor
2nd Base (2) - Kent, Doyle
Shortstop (2) - Davis, Jackson
Third Base (1) - Sandoval
Leftfield (2)- Bonds, Mitchell
Centerfield (2) - Mays, Donlin
Rightfield (1) - Ott
Starting Rotation (5) - Mathewson, Hubbell, Marichal, Rusie, Lincecum
Bullpen (8) - Nen, Casilla, Romo, Linzy, Grissom, Minton, Rodriguez, Beck

 

[calsnowskier]

I expanded my search to encompass top 10 OPS+ for each position, top 50 ERA+ for starting pitchers (minimum 100 IP) and top 70 ERA+ for relief pitchers (minimum 50 IP or 50 games). Here is what I found:
Catcher - Buster Posey had the single greatest offensive season as a catcher, in the history of the franchise, in 2012, based on this metric. He also landed the 8th spot in 2014. Incredibly, he doesn't have the most top 10 spots. That goes to Buck Ewing (2nd - 1888, 3rd - 1885 and 7th - 1883. Plus he landed in top 10 for 3rd baseman with his 1887 season). All other spots were one hit wonders. However, special mention for Jack Meyers. He placed 5th in his 1912 season and had two others that just missed the top 10.
Verdict: I'll let recency bias color my pick and go with Buster Posey. However, Buck Ewing makes a strong show to be the number 1 guy. Incredible that the Giants went over 100 years between strong, durable starting catchers (almost exactly 100 if you count Meyers).
1st Base - This one is also a bit surprising. I think most people would assume Willie McCovey would be a slam dunk, with Will Clark in 2nd. Not so. Roger Connor claims the 2nd, 4th, 7th and 10th spots for this position. His 1884 season was at 2nd base and landed him the 7th spot there. Additionally, his 1882 season with the Troy Trojans would land 4th (pushing the other spots back 1) at 1st base and his 1880 season with them at 3rd base would be good for the 3rd best in the franchise's history. I consider the Troy squad to be the start of the Giants history but that is for another thread.
Willie McCovey does have the best season, by OPS+, for a 1st baseman in his 1969 season. He also claims the 5th and 9th spots. Will Clark only has one top 10 season and it is ranked 8th (for comparison, Brandon Belt's 2020 season ranks 6th on the list).
Verdict: Another tough choice but I give it to McCovey, by a nose, with Connor his backup.
2nd Base - This is also a two man race but the winner is a bit more clear. Jeff Kent had the 2nd, 4th and 8th spots while Larry Doyle had the 3rd, 5th and 9th spots.
Verdict: Kent with Doyle as backup.
Shortstop - As much as I want to pick Brandon Crawford for this team, his 2021 (5th) was the only one to place in the top 10. There are two players who got multiple spots at this position: George Davis (4th, 6th) and Travis Jackson (7th and 9th).
Verdict: Davis with Jackson as backup.
3rd Base - As you may already have guessed, this position is a hodge podge of players. To further illustrate that, Mel Ott holds the best season of any 3rd baseman in the one year he played that position as the primary guy. With all the odd players in this group, only one players holds multiple spots in the top 10 and it isn't Matt Williams. It is Pablo Sandoval (4th and 9th). Special shout out to Jim Ray Hart (5th), who had a 3 year run that were all nearly identical to each other in OPS+ but fell just outside the top 10.
Verdict: Sandoval. No need for a backup. Ewing, Davis and Ott have got this spot covered.
Leftfield - The problem here isn't who would be the starter. That is obvious. Barry Bonds has 9 of the top 10 seasons covered (Kevin Mitchell's 1989 season is good for 6th place). Who backs him up on the roster? Mitchell?
Verdict: Bonds Maybe Mitchell as backup, making another guy who can cover 3rd base.
Centerfield - Yet another dominant performance, this time by the Say Hey Kid, Willie Mays. He also claimed 9 of the 10 spots, with the only outsider being Mike Donlin (7th). Donlin was a fairly dominant player for a time in the 1st decade of the 1900s but not nearly on the level as Mays.
Verdict: Mays. Donlin as backup.
Rightfield - Mel Ott is the man at this spot, but not nearly as dominant as the other two outfield spots. He merely claims 8 of the top 10 spots on this list. Jack Clark (2nd), Mike Yastrzemski (9th) and Mike Tiernan (10th) round out the top 10. Hunter Pence doesn't even get close. Tiernan has more just outside the top 10 than Pence does.
Verdict: Ott. Tiernan possibly as backup but Donlin may nudge him out.
Starting Rotation - With so many pitchers appearing multiple times, I've scored them with an aggregate score by adding their ranks and dividing by the number of times that they are ranked.
Christy Mathewson is the one with the most placements on the top 50 (with an incredible 8 appearances!). However, he only has the 3rd highest score (18.5) of the multiple starting pitchers. One guy who is higher is Tim Keefe (18), a starter from the late 1800s. His career started with the Trojans and, if you count his best season with them (modified score of 13), he would be considered the one to have thrown the best year for a starting pitcher, by measure of ERA+ The other guy with a higher score, the highest score (13.5) of this group, is Tim Lincecum. He also appeared only twice but they were the 10th and 17th best seasons. Other starters with more than two appearances are Carl Hubbell (5 total - 21.4 score), Juan Marichal (4 total - 23.25 score) and Amos Rusie (3 total - 23.3 score). Rounding out this group are Bill Walker (29) and Mickey Welch (34.5)
Verdict: I'm going to be build mainly on durability. The rotation would be Mathewson, Hubbell, Marichal and Rusie as the front 4. The 5th guy was down to Lincecum and Keefe but I went with Lincecum, due to his brilliance in that short period of his career. Hey, 5th starters can be interchangeable, right?
Bullpen - A total of 16 pitchers showed up at least twice in the top 70 group. They are, in order of score: Frank Linzy (2, 12.5); Robb Nen (3, 16); Javier Lopez (2, 21.5); Sergio Romo (3, 25); Marv Grissom (2, 26); Greg Minton (2, 26.5); Santiago Casilla (4, 29.75); Felix Rodriguez (2, 31); Rod Beck (2, 34); Brian Wilson (2, 38.5); Jeremy Affeldt (2, 39.5); Hoyt Wilhelm (2, 48); George Kontos (2, 51); Randy Moffitt (2, 53.5); Huner Strickland (2, 54.5); and Dave Heaverlo (2, 59).
Verdict: I am going with an 8 man bullpen, mainly because its hard to eliminate so many pitchers. I'll award durability first, going with Nen, Romo and Casilla since they all had more than 2 appearances on this list. Linzy has really good for 2 seasons and had a couple more good ones, so he makes the list. I then went with Grissom, Minton, Rodriguez and Beck. I skipped Lopez because he threw so few innings. How many of these other guys would make more appearances on this list if they were used as a LOOGY (or ROOGY) to the extent Lopez was used. Controversial, I know, but that is how I'll role. Its hard to remove him, Wilson, Affeldt and Wilhelm especially.

So, to summarize, this is my all Giants (Gothams, Trojans) team:
Catcher (2) - Posey, Ewing
1st Base (2) - McCovey, Connor
2nd Base (2) - Kent, Doyle
Shortstop (2) - Davis, Jackson
Third Base (1) - Sandoval
Leftfield (2)- Bonds, Mitchell
Centerfield (2) - Mays, Donlin
Rightfield (1) - Ott
Starting Rotation (5) - Mathewson, Hubbell, Marichal, Rusie, Lincecum
Bullpen (8) - Nen, Casilla, Romo, Linzy, Grissom, Minton, Rodriguez, Beck

You continue to prove my point of how lazy we all are.

Thank you.

 

[pachyderm]

I expanded my search to encompass top 10 OPS+ for each position, top 50 ERA+ for starting pitchers (minimum 100 IP) and top 70 ERA+ for relief pitchers (minimum 50 IP or 50 games). Here is what I found:
Catcher - Buster Posey had the single greatest offensive season as a catcher, in the history of the franchise, in 2012, based on this metric. He also landed the 8th spot in 2014. Incredibly, he doesn't have the most top 10 spots. That goes to Buck Ewing (2nd - 1888, 3rd - 1885 and 7th - 1883. Plus he landed in top 10 for 3rd baseman with his 1887 season). All other spots were one hit wonders. However, special mention for Jack Meyers. He placed 5th in his 1912 season and had two others that just missed the top 10.
Verdict: I'll let recency bias color my pick and go with Buster Posey. However, Buck Ewing makes a strong show to be the number 1 guy. Incredible that the Giants went over 100 years between strong, durable starting catchers (almost exactly 100 if you count Meyers).
1st Base - This one is also a bit surprising. I think most people would assume Willie McCovey would be a slam dunk, with Will Clark in 2nd. Not so. Roger Connor claims the 2nd, 4th, 7th and 10th spots for this position. His 1884 season was at 2nd base and landed him the 7th spot there. Additionally, his 1882 season with the Troy Trojans would land 4th (pushing the other spots back 1) at 1st base and his 1880 season with them at 3rd base would be good for the 3rd best in the franchise's history. I consider the Troy squad to be the start of the Giants history but that is for another thread.
Willie McCovey does have the best season, by OPS+, for a 1st baseman in his 1969 season. He also claims the 5th and 9th spots. Will Clark only has one top 10 season and it is ranked 8th (for comparison, Brandon Belt's 2020 season ranks 6th on the list).
Verdict: Another tough choice but I give it to McCovey, by a nose, with Connor his backup.
2nd Base - This is also a two man race but the winner is a bit more clear. Jeff Kent had the 2nd, 4th and 8th spots while Larry Doyle had the 3rd, 5th and 9th spots.
Verdict: Kent with Doyle as backup.
Shortstop - As much as I want to pick Brandon Crawford for this team, his 2021 (5th) was the only one to place in the top 10. There are two players who got multiple spots at this position: George Davis (4th, 6th) and Travis Jackson (7th and 9th).
Verdict: Davis with Jackson as backup.
3rd Base - As you may already have guessed, this position is a hodge podge of players. To further illustrate that, Mel Ott holds the best season of any 3rd baseman in the one year he played that position as the primary guy. With all the odd players in this group, only one players holds multiple spots in the top 10 and it isn't Matt Williams. It is Pablo Sandoval (4th and 9th). Special shout out to Jim Ray Hart (5th), who had a 3 year run that were all nearly identical to each other in OPS+ but fell just outside the top 10.
Verdict: Sandoval. No need for a backup. Ewing, Davis and Ott have got this spot covered.
Leftfield - The problem here isn't who would be the starter. That is obvious. Barry Bonds has 9 of the top 10 seasons covered (Kevin Mitchell's 1989 season is good for 6th place). Who backs him up on the roster? Mitchell?
Verdict: Bonds Maybe Mitchell as backup, making another guy who can cover 3rd base.
Centerfield - Yet another dominant performance, this time by the Say Hey Kid, Willie Mays. He also claimed 9 of the 10 spots, with the only outsider being Mike Donlin (7th). Donlin was a fairly dominant player for a time in the 1st decade of the 1900s but not nearly on the level as Mays.
Verdict: Mays. Donlin as backup.
Rightfield - Mel Ott is the man at this spot, but not nearly as dominant as the other two outfield spots. He merely claims 8 of the top 10 spots on this list. Jack Clark (2nd), Mike Yastrzemski (9th) and Mike Tiernan (10th) round out the top 10. Hunter Pence doesn't even get close. Tiernan has more just outside the top 10 than Pence does.
Verdict: Ott. Tiernan possibly as backup but Donlin may nudge him out.
Starting Rotation - With so many pitchers appearing multiple times, I've scored them with an aggregate score by adding their ranks and dividing by the number of times that they are ranked.
Christy Mathewson is the one with the most placements on the top 50 (with an incredible 8 appearances!). However, he only has the 3rd highest score (18.5) of the multiple starting pitchers. One guy who is higher is Tim Keefe (18), a starter from the late 1800s. His career started with the Trojans and, if you count his best season with them (modified score of 13), he would be considered the one to have thrown the best year for a starting pitcher, by measure of ERA+ The other guy with a higher score, the highest score (13.5) of this group, is Tim Lincecum. He also appeared only twice but they were the 10th and 17th best seasons. Other starters with more than two appearances are Carl Hubbell (5 total - 21.4 score), Juan Marichal (4 total - 23.25 score) and Amos Rusie (3 total - 23.3 score). Rounding out this group are Bill Walker (29) and Mickey Welch (34.5)
Verdict: I'm going to be build mainly on durability. The rotation would be Mathewson, Hubbell, Marichal and Rusie as the front 4. The 5th guy was down to Lincecum and Keefe but I went with Lincecum, due to his brilliance in that short period of his career. Hey, 5th starters can be interchangeable, right?
Bullpen - A total of 16 pitchers showed up at least twice in the top 70 group. They are, in order of score: Frank Linzy (2, 12.5); Robb Nen (3, 16); Javier Lopez (2, 21.5); Sergio Romo (3, 25); Marv Grissom (2, 26); Greg Minton (2, 26.5); Santiago Casilla (4, 29.75); Felix Rodriguez (2, 31); Rod Beck (2, 34); Brian Wilson (2, 38.5); Jeremy Affeldt (2, 39.5); Hoyt Wilhelm (2, 48); George Kontos (2, 51); Randy Moffitt (2, 53.5); Huner Strickland (2, 54.5); and Dave Heaverlo (2, 59).
Verdict: I am going with an 8 man bullpen, mainly because its hard to eliminate so many pitchers. I'll award durability first, going with Nen, Romo and Casilla since they all had more than 2 appearances on this list. Linzy has really good for 2 seasons and had a couple more good ones, so he makes the list. I then went with Grissom, Minton, Rodriguez and Beck. I skipped Lopez because he threw so few innings. How many of these other guys would make more appearances on this list if they were used as a LOOGY (or ROOGY) to the extent Lopez was used. Controversial, I know, but that is how I'll role. Its hard to remove him, Wilson, Affeldt and Wilhelm especially.

So, to summarize, this is my all Giants (Gothams, Trojans) team:
Catcher (2) - Posey, Ewing
1st Base (2) - McCovey, Connor
2nd Base (2) - Kent, Doyle
Shortstop (2) - Davis, Jackson
Third Base (1) - Sandoval
Leftfield (2)- Bonds, Mitchell
Centerfield (2) - Mays, Donlin
Rightfield (1) - Ott
Starting Rotation (5) - Mathewson, Hubbell, Marichal, Rusie, Lincecum
Bullpen (8) - Nen, Casilla, Romo, Linzy, Grissom, Minton, Rodriguez, Beck

1B McCovey/W.Clark for me

 

[LHG]

You continue to prove my point of how lazy we all are.

Thank you.

I do my best.

 

[LHG]

1B McCovey/W.Clark for me

I love The Thrill but his best seasons, and his career, just don't stack up against Connor.
Clark played a total of 15 seasons and finished with a career OPS+ of 137. Connor played a total of 18 seasons and finished with a career OPS+ of 153.
Clark's career slash line is .303/.384/.497. Connor's career slash line is .316/.397/.486.
Connor has more doubles (441 vs 440), more triples (233 vs 47), more hits (2,467 vs 2,176), more runs (1,620 vs 1,186), more RBIs (1,323 vs 1,205), more walks (1,002 vs 937) and fewer strikeouts (455 vs 1,190). Only in the home run department does Clark trump Connor (284 vs 133). And in case you want to argue that Connor's counting stats are higher due to 3 additional years, consider that, in Connor's era, fewer games were played in a big league season. Connor played a total of 1,998 games versus Clark's 1,976 games.
They are comparable but Connor gets the edge, especially since he played more seasons with the Gothams/Giants than Clark did (13 for Connor, 8 for Clark).

 

[calsnowskier]

I love The Thrill but his best seasons, and his career, just don't stack up against Connor.
Clark played a total of 15 seasons and finished with a career OPS+ of 137. Connor played a total of 18 seasons and finished with a career OPS+ of 153.
Clark's career slash line is .303/.384/.497. Connor's career slash line is .316/.397/.486.
Connor has more doubles (441 vs 440), more triples (233 vs 47), more hits (2,467 vs 2,176), more runs (1,620 vs 1,186), more RBIs (1,323 vs 1,205), more walks (1,002 vs 937) and fewer strikeouts (455 vs 1,190). Only in the home run department does Clark trump Connor (284 vs 133). And in case you want to argue that Connor's counting stats are higher due to 3 additional years, consider that, in Connor's era, fewer games were played in a big league season. Connor played a total of 1,998 games versus Clark's 1,976 games.
They are comparable but Connor gets the edge, especially since he played more seasons with the Gothams/Giants than Clark did (13 for Connor, 8 for Clark).

Connor has the pre-1900 stink on him, though. The game was so different in the early years. It realy is hard to make comparisons, and imho, looking at stats is almost pointless.

 

[calsnowskier]

Roger Connor Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More | Baseball-Reference.com

Check out the latest Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More of Roger Connor. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, bats, throws, school and more on Baseball-reference.com

www.baseball-reference.com

I was looking at Connir’s transactions, and there were a few instances where he “jumped” from team to another.

What does that mean?


Also, what was the “Player League”? And was the New York Giants in the PL somehow affiliated to the MLB NY Giants?

 

[LHG]

Connor has the pre-1900 stink on him, though. The game was so different in the early years. It realy is hard to make comparisons, and imho, looking at stats is almost pointless.

That is why I tried to rely more on OPS+. It is a little bit more independent of the era, simply because it measures relative to the average of that season. So, to me, a guy who hit 153% better than his peers is worth consideration over a guy who hit 137% better than his peers.

 

[LHG]

Roger Connor Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More | Baseball-Reference.com

Check out the latest Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More of Roger Connor. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, bats, throws, school and more on Baseball-reference.com

www.baseball-reference.com

I was looking at Connir’s transactions, and there were a few instances where he “jumped” from team to another.

What does that mean?


Also, what was the “Player League”? And was the New York Giants in the PL somehow affiliated to the MLB NY Giants?

Yes, the late 1800s/early 1900s was an interesting period in major league baseball. Since the National League was relatively new, enterprising people decided to make new leagues. The Player League was one such iteration meant to compete against the NL. Unfortunately, it failed. Other leagues that I can think of that had similar outcomes is the Federal League and the National Association (which really morphed into the National League). There are others I cannot remember. This was really the first and biggest challenges to anti-trust issues within major league baseball.

 

[calsnowskier]

Players' League - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[calsnowskier]

That is why I tried to rely more on OPS+. It is a little bit more independent of the era, simply because it measures relative to the average of that season. So, to me, a guy who hit 153% better than his peers is worth consideration over a guy who hit 137% better than his peers.

OPS+ is definitely the way to go when comparing different eras. But in the super early years, not all the players were pros. Some players were literally playing for no pay at all.

Typically, when I do “all time” studies, I completely ignore anything pre-1900. The game was too volatile to trust, both in rules and player consistency. For example, for the first few years, if a player hit a double, it was actually scored as a single with a SB.

 

[LHG]

Players' League - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The American Association! I forgot that used to be a major league.

 

[LHG]

OPS+ is definitely the way to go when comparing different eras. But in the super early years, not all the players were pros. Some players were literally playing for no pay at all.

Typically, when I do “all time” studies, I completely ignore anything pre-1900. The game was too volatile to trust, both in rules and player consistency. For example, for the first few years, if a player hit a double, it was actually scored as a single with a SB.

Rules did change quite a bit in the early days (like the fact that a player could be ruled out if beaned by the baseball between bases). Yet, I still think the top players of that time should still be considered. Every era has its quibbles. People often complained in the 90s about expansion baseball and how it watered down the talent. There is no perfect way to compare eras.

 

[Sandisfan]

I expanded my search to encompass top 10 OPS+ for each position, top 50 ERA+ for starting pitchers (minimum 100 IP) and top 70 ERA+ for relief pitchers (minimum 50 IP or 50 games). Here is what I found:
Catcher - Buster Posey had the single greatest offensive season as a catcher, in the history of the franchise, in 2012, based on this metric. He also landed the 8th spot in 2014. Incredibly, he doesn't have the most top 10 spots. That goes to Buck Ewing (2nd - 1888, 3rd - 1885 and 7th - 1883. Plus he landed in top 10 for 3rd baseman with his 1887 season). All other spots were one hit wonders. However, special mention for Jack Meyers. He placed 5th in his 1912 season and had two others that just missed the top 10.
Verdict: I'll let recency bias color my pick and go with Buster Posey. However, Buck Ewing makes a strong show to be the number 1 guy. Incredible that the Giants went over 100 years between strong, durable starting catchers (almost exactly 100 if you count Meyers).
1st Base - This one is also a bit surprising. I think most people would assume Willie McCovey would be a slam dunk, with Will Clark in 2nd. Not so. Roger Connor claims the 2nd, 4th, 7th and 10th spots for this position. His 1884 season was at 2nd base and landed him the 7th spot there. Additionally, his 1882 season with the Troy Trojans would land 4th (pushing the other spots back 1) at 1st base and his 1880 season with them at 3rd base would be good for the 3rd best in the franchise's history. I consider the Troy squad to be the start of the Giants history but that is for another thread.
Willie McCovey does have the best season, by OPS+, for a 1st baseman in his 1969 season. He also claims the 5th and 9th spots. Will Clark only has one top 10 season and it is ranked 8th (for comparison, Brandon Belt's 2020 season ranks 6th on the list).
Verdict: Another tough choice but I give it to McCovey, by a nose, with Connor his backup.
2nd Base - This is also a two man race but the winner is a bit more clear. Jeff Kent had the 2nd, 4th and 8th spots while Larry Doyle had the 3rd, 5th and 9th spots.
Verdict: Kent with Doyle as backup.
Shortstop - As much as I want to pick Brandon Crawford for this team, his 2021 (5th) was the only one to place in the top 10. There are two players who got multiple spots at this position: George Davis (4th, 6th) and Travis Jackson (7th and 9th).
Verdict: Davis with Jackson as backup.
3rd Base - As you may already have guessed, this position is a hodge podge of players. To further illustrate that, Mel Ott holds the best season of any 3rd baseman in the one year he played that position as the primary guy. With all the odd players in this group, only one players holds multiple spots in the top 10 and it isn't Matt Williams. It is Pablo Sandoval (4th and 9th). Special shout out to Jim Ray Hart (5th), who had a 3 year run that were all nearly identical to each other in OPS+ but fell just outside the top 10.
Verdict: Sandoval. No need for a backup. Ewing, Davis and Ott have got this spot covered.
Leftfield - The problem here isn't who would be the starter. That is obvious. Barry Bonds has 9 of the top 10 seasons covered (Kevin Mitchell's 1989 season is good for 6th place). Who backs him up on the roster? Mitchell?
Verdict: Bonds Maybe Mitchell as backup, making another guy who can cover 3rd base.
Centerfield - Yet another dominant performance, this time by the Say Hey Kid, Willie Mays. He also claimed 9 of the 10 spots, with the only outsider being Mike Donlin (7th). Donlin was a fairly dominant player for a time in the 1st decade of the 1900s but not nearly on the level as Mays.
Verdict: Mays. Donlin as backup.
Rightfield - Mel Ott is the man at this spot, but not nearly as dominant as the other two outfield spots. He merely claims 8 of the top 10 spots on this list. Jack Clark (2nd), Mike Yastrzemski (9th) and Mike Tiernan (10th) round out the top 10. Hunter Pence doesn't even get close. Tiernan has more just outside the top 10 than Pence does.
Verdict: Ott. Tiernan possibly as backup but Donlin may nudge him out.
Starting Rotation - With so many pitchers appearing multiple times, I've scored them with an aggregate score by adding their ranks and dividing by the number of times that they are ranked.
Christy Mathewson is the one with the most placements on the top 50 (with an incredible 8 appearances!). However, he only has the 3rd highest score (18.5) of the multiple starting pitchers. One guy who is higher is Tim Keefe (18), a starter from the late 1800s. His career started with the Trojans and, if you count his best season with them (modified score of 13), he would be considered the one to have thrown the best year for a starting pitcher, by measure of ERA+ The other guy with a higher score, the highest score (13.5) of this group, is Tim Lincecum. He also appeared only twice but they were the 10th and 17th best seasons. Other starters with more than two appearances are Carl Hubbell (5 total - 21.4 score), Juan Marichal (4 total - 23.25 score) and Amos Rusie (3 total - 23.3 score). Rounding out this group are Bill Walker (29) and Mickey Welch (34.5)
Verdict: I'm going to be build mainly on durability. The rotation would be Mathewson, Hubbell, Marichal and Rusie as the front 4. The 5th guy was down to Lincecum and Keefe but I went with Lincecum, due to his brilliance in that short period of his career. Hey, 5th starters can be interchangeable, right?
Bullpen - A total of 16 pitchers showed up at least twice in the top 70 group. They are, in order of score: Frank Linzy (2, 12.5); Robb Nen (3, 16); Javier Lopez (2, 21.5); Sergio Romo (3, 25); Marv Grissom (2, 26); Greg Minton (2, 26.5); Santiago Casilla (4, 29.75); Felix Rodriguez (2, 31); Rod Beck (2, 34); Brian Wilson (2, 38.5); Jeremy Affeldt (2, 39.5); Hoyt Wilhelm (2, 48); George Kontos (2, 51); Randy Moffitt (2, 53.5); Huner Strickland (2, 54.5); and Dave Heaverlo (2, 59).
Verdict: I am going with an 8 man bullpen, mainly because its hard to eliminate so many pitchers. I'll award durability first, going with Nen, Romo and Casilla since they all had more than 2 appearances on this list. Linzy has really good for 2 seasons and had a couple more good ones, so he makes the list. I then went with Grissom, Minton, Rodriguez and Beck. I skipped Lopez because he threw so few innings. How many of these other guys would make more appearances on this list if they were used as a LOOGY (or ROOGY) to the extent Lopez was used. Controversial, I know, but that is how I'll role. Its hard to remove him, Wilson, Affeldt and Wilhelm especially.

So, to summarize, this is my all Giants (Gothams, Trojans) team:
Catcher (2) - Posey, Ewing
1st Base (2) - McCovey, Connor
2nd Base (2) - Kent, Doyle
Shortstop (2) - Davis, Jackson
Third Base (1) - Sandoval
Leftfield (2)- Bonds, Mitchell
Centerfield (2) - Mays, Donlin
Rightfield (1) - Ott
Starting Rotation (5) - Mathewson, Hubbell, Marichal, Rusie, Lincecum
Bullpen (8) - Nen, Casilla, Romo, Linzy, Grissom, Minton, Rodriguez, Beck

Beck was kind of a unicorn in that he did as well and at times better against Lefty Hitters so would be as or more valuable as others on this list.