Consensus All-Time Giants Team

[dredinis21]

So a poster is doing this exercise on the main board and I thought it would be fun to see if we couldn't get a consensus All-Time Giants team.

Rules:
Player must have played 4 seasons with NY/SF
Player must have played more then a small handful of games at position posted
When dealing with RP, 1 long relievers/2 mid relief/LOOGY/LH Set up/RH Set up/CL

Here's my set up

Positions
C Posey
1B Stretch
2B Kent
SS Crawford
3B M. Williams or Davenport
LF Teh Lord
CF GOAT
RF Cepeda

Bench
Thrill
Pick an Alou
Irvin
Davenport
Aurillia

SP
Mathewson
Marichel
Timmeh
Gaylord
MadBum

RP
My picks for bully are rather homer-tastic towards today's players, guys like Romo, Affeldt, and Lopez make my bully based on their consistent success. My problem is that I really only noticed the closers growing up. So my full bullpen knowledge after, say 1990, is a little shaky. Sure, I remember Steve Bedrosian, but I would be hard pressed to find much more then that in the 1980's.

Let me know what you guys think.

 

[calsnowskier]

The positional players are pretty open and shut. I would have to research a but to if Craw actually deserves the honor already. Aurilia, Jackson and Vizquel, just to name a few. I also believe you are right about Matty, but I Think we gotta look at Hart and Jackson before we hand it over.

Not sure any of the current rotation will make cut.

Mathewson, Hubbell, Marichal just to start. Timmeh was not good enough for long enough to be listed on a list like this. Bum will certainly make this list eventually, but dude is only 26.

For the bench, not sure Clark makes the cut. If you want a 1B, you gotta go Terry. How about Speier as a util?

You also gotta have a BU catcher. Denning? Manwaring? Molina?

For a closer, I think it is between Nen and Shooter. Other relievers to consider would be Affeldt, Lopez, Jackson, Worrell, Garrelts, Downs, Fingers...

 

[dredinis21]

The positional players are pretty open and shut. I would have to research a but to if Craw actually deserves the honor already. Aurilia, Jackson and Vizquel, just to name a few. I also believe you are right about Matty, but I Think we gotta look at Hart and Jackson before we hand it over.

Not sure any of the current rotation will make cut.

Mathewson, Hubbell, Marichal just to start. Timmeh was not good enough for long enough to be listed on a list like this. Bum will certainly make this list eventually, but dude is only 26.

For the bench, not sure Clark makes the cut. If you want a 1B, you gotta go Terry. How about Speier as a util?

You also gotta have a BU catcher. Denning? Manwaring? Molina?

For a closer, I think it is between Nen and Shooter. Other relievers to consider would be Affeldt, Lopez, Jackson, Worrell, Garrelts, Downs, Fingers...

I take their postseason success into account as well. Timmeh had two CY's and a couple other good seasons, including the anchor of the 2010 Championship team. MadBum is a postseason legend with regular season numbers that are definitely #1 starter numbers.

Shooter was a personal fav of mine growing up, with that arm that dangled and the handlebar stache I could only wish to grow. But Nen gave his arm, literally, to the team and its bid to try and win a WS. And for that, I am eternally grateful.

Come to think of it, didn't Dusty ride Shooter's arm pretty relentlessly to? I vaguely remember him having a stretch where he was getting people out with piss, vinegar, spit, slobber, and an 88 mph splitter.

 

[dredinis21]

The positional players are pretty open and shut. I would have to research a but to if Craw actually deserves the honor already. Aurilia, Jackson and Vizquel, just to name a few. I also believe you are right about Matty, but I Think we gotta look at Hart and Jackson before we hand it over.

Not sure any of the current rotation will make cut.

Mathewson, Hubbell, Marichal just to start. Timmeh was not good enough for long enough to be listed on a list like this. Bum will certainly make this list eventually, but dude is only 26.

For the bench, not sure Clark makes the cut. If you want a 1B, you gotta go Terry. How about Speier as a util?

You also gotta have a BU catcher. Denning? Manwaring? Molina?

For a closer, I think it is between Nen and Shooter. Other relievers to consider would be Affeldt, Lopez, Jackson, Worrell, Garrelts, Downs, Fingers...

Forgot about him! Sheeeeiiiiiiittttttt!

 

[Omar 382]

Woah woah woah. This is my territory fellas

 

[Mays-Fan]

This is a more daunting task than it appears. The NY Giants of the early 20th century had some very good teams with some very good players under manager John McGraw. I would invite anyone who wants to give this era a fair shake to look at:

San Francisco Giants Team History & Encyclopedia | Baseball-Reference.com

and start poking around the links. There are many players worth consideration here.

Bon appetit.

 

[tzill]

I'll need to research a bit, but at first blush you're missing Ott in RF

 

[calsnowskier]

I'll need to research a bit, but at first blush you're missing Ott in RF

Doh.

I didn't even notice that. Ott is one of the elite of the elite. Just a shave below Mays and Bonds.

The Giants all-tine OF of Ott/Mays/Bonds is better than ANY team can put out there. Yankees? Nope. Red Sox? Nope.

 

[dredinis21]

Woah woah woah. This is my territory fellas

By your pace, we would be getting to the Giants by the All-Star break, so I decided to bring it early and see what lifelong Giants fans could bring well ahead of your pace.

 

[dredinis21]

Doh.

I didn't even notice that. Ott is one of the elite of the elite. Just a shave below Mays and Bonds.

The Giants all-tine OF of Ott/Mays/Bonds is better than ANY team can put out there. Yankees? Nope. Red Sox? Nope.

What's crazy is that it would put a HOF player in Cepeda on the bench and I don't think anyone would argue otherwise.

 

[calsnowskier]

What's crazy is that it would put a HOF player in Cepeda on the bench and I don't think anyone would argue otherwise.

Except you, apparently...

 

[dredinis21]

Except you, apparently...

 

[dredinis21]

Question....should Bobby Bonds be on the bench ahead of any or all of the Alou brothers?

 

[tzill]

Doh.

I didn't even notice that. Ott is one of the elite of the elite. Just a shave below Mays and Bonds.

The Giants all-tine OF of Ott/Mays/Bonds is better than ANY team can put out there. Yankees? Nope. Red Sox? Nope.

Agreed. You've got the GOAT, the GHOAT, and Ott, who "averaged" 154 OPS+....

Can't be touched by any team.

 

[LHG]

I came across this thread and began to wonder, how would one assemble the all time best team? As I began to research back to 1886, I began to ask another question - what are the top two all time best seasons for each position player, based on OPS+ and top 5 starting pitchers and top 7 relief pitchers based on ERA+? Well, here is that answer:
Catcher - Buster Posey, 2012, 177 OPS+; Buck Ewing, 1888, 158 OPS+
1st Base - Willie McCovey, 1969, 209 OPS+; Roger Connor, 1885, 200 OPS+
2nd Base - Sammy Strang, 1906, 164 OPS+; Jeff Kent, 2000, 162 OPS+
Shortstop - Rogers Hornsby, 1927, 175 OPS+; Jack Glasscock, 1890, 147 OPS+
3rd Base - Mel Ott, 1938, 178 OPS+; Matt Williams, 1995, 177 OPS+
Left Field - Barry Bonds, 2002, 268 OPS+; Barry Bonds, 2004, 263 OPS+
Center Field - Willie Mays, 1965, 185 OPS+; Willie Mays, 1954 & 1963, 175 OPS+
Right Field - Mel Ott, 1936, 177 OPS+; Jack Clark, 1984, 176 OPS+
Starting Pitcher #1 - Christy Mathewson, 1905, 233 ERA+
Starting Pitcher #2 - Christy Mathewson, 1909, 224 ERA+
Starting Pitcher #3 - Carl Hubbell, 1933, 193 ERA+
Starting Pitcher #4 - Amos Rusie, 1894, 188 ERA+
Starting Pitcher #5 - Jason Schmidt, 2003, 180 ERA+
Bullpen #1 - Frank Williams, 1986, 296 ERA+
Bullpen #2 - Robb Nen, 2000, 286 ERA+
Bullpen #3 - Dominic Leone, 2021, 275 ERA+
Bullpen #4 - Steve Reed, 1998, 274 ERA+
Bullpen #5 - Ferdie Schupp, 1915, 272 ERA+
Bullpen #6 - Gene Thompson, 1946, 269 ERA+
Bullpen #7 - Michael Jackson, 1994, 269 ERA+

 

[pachyderm]

I came across this thread and began to wonder, how would one assemble the all time best team? As I began to research back to 1886, I began to ask another question - what are the top two all time best seasons for each position player, based on OPS+ and top 5 starting pitchers and top 7 relief pitchers based on ERA+? Well, here is that answer:
Catcher - Buster Posey, 2012, 177 OPS+; Buck Ewing, 1888, 158 OPS+
1st Base - Willie McCovey, 1969, 209 OPS+; Roger Connor, 1885, 200 OPS+
2nd Base - Sammy Strang, 1906, 164 OPS+; Jeff Kent, 2000, 162 OPS+
Shortstop - Rogers Hornsby, 1927, 175 OPS+; Jack Glasscock, 1890, 147 OPS+
3rd Base - Mel Ott, 1938, 178 OPS+; Matt Williams, 1995, 177 OPS+
Left Field - Barry Bonds, 2002, 268 OPS+; Barry Bonds, 2004, 263 OPS+
Center Field - Willie Mays, 1965, 185 OPS+; Willie Mays, 1954 & 1963, 175 OPS+
Right Field - Mel Ott, 1936, 177 OPS+; Jack Clark, 1984, 176 OPS+
Starting Pitcher #1 - Christy Mathewson, 1905, 233 ERA+
Starting Pitcher #2 - Christy Mathewson, 1909, 224 ERA+
Starting Pitcher #3 - Carl Hubbell, 1933, 193 ERA+
Starting Pitcher #4 - Amos Rusie, 1894, 188 ERA+
Starting Pitcher #5 - Jason Schmidt, 2003, 180 ERA+
Bullpen #1 - Frank Williams, 1986, 296 ERA+
Bullpen #2 - Robb Nen, 2000, 286 ERA+
Bullpen #3 - Dominic Leone, 2021, 275 ERA+
Bullpen #4 - Steve Reed, 1998, 274 ERA+
Bullpen #5 - Ferdie Schupp, 1915, 272 ERA+
Bullpen #6 - Gene Thompson, 1946, 269 ERA+
Bullpen #7 - Michael Jackson, 1994, 269 ERA+

So you stuck with the spirit of this thread but then tweaked it... ?

 

[LHG]

So you stuck with the spirit of this thread but then tweaked it... ?

That would be using the spirit of the thread . . .

 

[Mays-Fan]

I came across this thread and began to wonder, how would one assemble the all time best team? As I began to research back to 1886, I began to ask another question - what are the top two all time best seasons for each position player, based on OPS+ and top 5 starting pitchers and top 7 relief pitchers based on ERA+? Well, here is that answer:
Catcher - Buster Posey, 2012, 177 OPS+; Buck Ewing, 1888, 158 OPS+
1st Base - Willie McCovey, 1969, 209 OPS+; Roger Connor, 1885, 200 OPS+
2nd Base - Sammy Strang, 1906, 164 OPS+; Jeff Kent, 2000, 162 OPS+
Shortstop - Rogers Hornsby, 1927, 175 OPS+; Jack Glasscock, 1890, 147 OPS+
3rd Base - Mel Ott, 1938, 178 OPS+; Matt Williams, 1995, 177 OPS+
Left Field - Barry Bonds, 2002, 268 OPS+; Barry Bonds, 2004, 263 OPS+
Center Field - Willie Mays, 1965, 185 OPS+; Willie Mays, 1954 & 1963, 175 OPS+
Right Field - Mel Ott, 1936, 177 OPS+; Jack Clark, 1984, 176 OPS+
Starting Pitcher #1 - Christy Mathewson, 1905, 233 ERA+
Starting Pitcher #2 - Christy Mathewson, 1909, 224 ERA+
Starting Pitcher #3 - Carl Hubbell, 1933, 193 ERA+
Starting Pitcher #4 - Amos Rusie, 1894, 188 ERA+
Starting Pitcher #5 - Jason Schmidt, 2003, 180 ERA+
Bullpen #1 - Frank Williams, 1986, 296 ERA+
Bullpen #2 - Robb Nen, 2000, 286 ERA+
Bullpen #3 - Dominic Leone, 2021, 275 ERA+
Bullpen #4 - Steve Reed, 1998, 274 ERA+
Bullpen #5 - Ferdie Schupp, 1915, 272 ERA+
Bullpen #6 - Gene Thompson, 1946, 269 ERA+
Bullpen #7 - Michael Jackson, 1994, 269 ERA+

Interesting stuff, and we appreciate the effort. But is it fair to just look at a player's ONE best season? There's some great players here, to be sure, but there are also a number of one-hit wonders, so to speak.

For example, in the bullpen, if one were to put together what we would consider our best relievers, where's Rod Beck? Instead because of the criteria of ONE season, we get Frank Williams, Dominic Leone, Steve Reed, etc.

And among the SP's, sure, Jason Schmidt had that one phenomenal year, but what Giants All-Time team would not have Juan Marichal or Gaylord Perry, or esp because of his post-season play, Madison Bumgarner.

I know it would be much more difficult, but it seems a more comprehensive look would require perhaps a player's FIVE best seasons instead of just one. And perhaps factor in post-season play somehow. One also should factor in a defensive measure as well.

Perhaps someone could get ChatGPT to do this? I have not delved into this arena, but I'll bet some talented programmer type could work this out.

Anyway, GREAT concept, LHG, and a very good first cut at OBJECTIVELY making such a list.

 

[LHG]

Interesting stuff, and we appreciate the effort. But is it fair to just look at a player's ONE best season? There's some great players here, to be sure, but there are also a number of one-hit wonders, so to speak.

For example, in the bullpen, if one were to put together what we would consider our best relievers, where's Rod Beck? Instead because of the criteria of ONE season, we get Frank Williams, Dominic Leone, Steve Reed, etc.

And among the SP's, sure, Jason Schmidt had that one phenomenal year, but what Giants All-Time team would not have Juan Marichal or Gaylord Perry, or esp because of his post-season play, Madison Bumgarner.

I know it would be much more difficult, but it seems a more comprehensive look would require perhaps a player's FIVE best seasons instead of just one. And perhaps factor in post-season play somehow. One also should factor in a defensive measure as well.

Perhaps someone could get ChatGPT to do this? I have not delved into this arena, but I'll bet some talented programmer type could work this out.

Anyway, GREAT concept, LHG, and a very good first cut at OBJECTIVELY making such a list.

I wasn't trying to make the all time best Giants list because of this criteria. This was more just an interesting look at all time best seasons as I was looking backward. Yes, some were one hit wonders (especially the bullpen) while others were consistent. For example, Bonds and Mays have the top 5 best seasons for Giants in left and center field, respectively. And Mel Ott had 5 of 6 best seasons for a right fielder, with Jack Clark, having one good season there as a Giant, in 2nd place.

I've looked at top 5 seasons for each position, based on how much better it was compared to league average that year, and this is what I've found:
Catcher - Buck Ewing had 3 of the top 6 offensive seasons as a Giant. Buster Posey only had 1 (Jack Meyers, 1912 and Dick Dietz, 1970, round out the top group).
1st Base - Both Willie McCovey and Roger Connor had two of the top 5 seasons. McCovey had the most dominant but Connor had the 2 and 4 spot. Johnny Mize had the 3rd spot.
2nd Base - Jeff Kent had the 2nd and 4th spot while Larry Doyle (1911, 1915) had the 3rd and 5th spots.
Shortstop - This position (and 3rd base) does not have any one player in multiple spots in the top 5. Top 5 are, in order: Rogers Hornsby (1927), Jack Glasscock (1890), Rich Aurilia (2001), George Davis (1897) and Brandon Crawford (2021).
3rd Base - Top 5 are: Mel Ott (I believe his one season at 3rd base), Matt Williams, George Davis (1893), Pablo Sandoval (2011) and Jim Ray Hart (1967).
Left Field - The outfield is where players clearly separate themselves. Barry Bonds is in all Top 5 spots, and I believe he is top 6 and 7 as well.
Center Field - Just like Bonds, Willie Mays has all top 5 spots.
Right Field - As I already mentioned, Ott has 4 of the top 5 seasons and he is also 6th and maybe 7th.
Starting Rotation - I did measure the top 20 seasons for starting pitchers and here are the most appearances: Christy Mathewson (5), Carl Hubbell (3), Juan Marchial (3), Amos Rusie (2) and Tim Lincecum (2).
Bullpen - I also expanded this group to record the top 35 seasons. Most appearances on this list are: Santiago Casilla (3), Sergio Romo (3), Robb Nen (2), Frank Linzy (2), Greg Minton (2), Javier Lopez (2) and Rod Beck (2)

 

[Mays-Fan]

I wasn't trying to make the all time best Giants list because of this criteria. This was more just an interesting look at all time best seasons as I was looking backward. Yes, some were one hit wonders (especially the bullpen) while others were consistent. For example, Bonds and Mays have the top 5 best seasons for Giants in left and center field, respectively. And Mel Ott had 5 of 6 best seasons for a right fielder, with Jack Clark, having one good season there as a Giant, in 2nd place.

I've looked at top 5 seasons for each position, based on how much better it was compared to league average that year, and this is what I've found:
Catcher - Buck Ewing had 3 of the top 6 offensive seasons as a Giant. Buster Posey only had 1 (Jack Meyers, 1912 and Dick Dietz, 1970, round out the top group).
1st Base - Both Willie McCovey and Roger Connor had two of the top 5 seasons. McCovey had the most dominant but Connor had the 2 and 4 spot. Johnny Mize had the 3rd spot.
2nd Base - Jeff Kent had the 2nd and 4th spot while Larry Doyle (1911, 1915) had the 3rd and 5th spots.
Shortstop - This position (and 3rd base) does not have any one player in multiple spots in the top 5. Top 5 are, in order: Rogers Hornsby (1927), Jack Glasscock (1890), Rich Aurilia (2001), George Davis (1897) and Brandon Crawford (2021).
3rd Base - Top 5 are: Mel Ott (I believe his one season at 3rd base), Matt Williams, George Davis (1893), Pablo Sandoval (2011) and Jim Ray Hart (1967).
Left Field - The outfield is where players clearly separate themselves. Barry Bonds is in all Top 5 spots, and I believe he is top 6 and 7 as well.
Center Field - Just like Bonds, Willie Mays has all top 5 spots.
Right Field - As I already mentioned, Ott has 4 of the top 5 seasons and he is also 6th and maybe 7th.
Starting Rotation - I did measure the top 20 seasons for starting pitchers and here are the most appearances: Christy Mathewson (5), Carl Hubbell (3), Juan Marchial (3), Amos Rusie (2) and Tim Lincecum (2).
Bullpen - I also expanded this group to record the top 35 seasons. Most appearances on this list are: Santiago Casilla (3), Sergio Romo (3), Robb Nen (2), Frank Linzy (2), Greg Minton (2), Javier Lopez (2) and Rod Beck (2)

That certainly cleaned up the pitching, both the SPs and the BP.

I don't know how easily you could do this with your data and methodology, but I would be curious, for the everyday players, if you looked at the top 25 or even 50 seasons for each position, then look who had the most for each. The outfield won't likely change, but the infield could be interesting. There's something to be said if a player can come up with 6 or 8 of the top seasons, versus only having 1 or 2.

I'm not sure we've had a dominant 2B, SS, or 3B for a longer career, at least offensively.