Cain, pitch counts moving forward

[dredinis21]

Question for the masses. During the telecast, they mentioned that cain had pitched (if I heard correctly) 116, 117, and this game was over 120 pitches.

Do you think Bochy, in an effort to ease some of the stress put on Cain's arm, kicks his pitch count back to 100 or so for the next start or two? I know that Cain typically has monster arm strength and a strenuous throwing regimen...just curious as to what you all think.

Personally, I would like to see the Giants tell him during his next start that he will be going around 100 pitches, but not much more in order to give his arm a "rest" just for preservation's sake given the dogfight we conceivably will be in with the Doyers going into the second half of the season. With Timmeh pitching like Solomon Torres on the final day in 1993 seemingly in every start (ok, maybe an exaggeration but not by much), it is SO important to keep Cain, MadBum, and Vogey healthy for the stretch run.

 

[Epic Voidfield]

Bochy was willing to let Cain go for 130+ pitches last night. I would probably monitor his pitch count for the next few starts if it went further than 130, except that Cain threw 125 last night while averaging 108 pitches per start this year. That's +9, +8 and +17 differential from the last three start up to the perfect game. I don't think it's a big deal; if anything, it may be too pantshatty to think otherwise. The guy is a horse, he's fine.

Angry Boch on the other hand...

AB: I LEAVE THE NEW RICH GUY ON THE MOUND TO MAKE HISTORY YOU SORRY ASSES COULD EVER IMAGINE SEEING IN A GIANTS UNIFORM, AND THIS IS THE THANKS I GET? FUCK YOU!

 

[tzill]

Bochy was willing to let Cain go for 130+ pitches last night. I would probably monitor his pitch count for the next few starts if it went further than 130, except that Cain threw 125 last night while averaging 108 pitches per start this year. That's +9, +8 and +17 differential from the last three start up to the perfect game. I don't think it's a big deal; if anything, it may be too pantshatty to think otherwise. The guy is a horse, he's fine.

Angry Boch on the other hand...

AB: I LEAVE THE NEW RICH GUY ON THE MOUND TO MAKE HISTORY YOU SORRY ASSES COULD EVER IMAGINE SEEING IN A GIANTS UNIFORM, AND THIS IS THE THANKS I GET? FUCK YOU!

This. Repped. Pitch counts are important for DEVELOPING pitchers. For vets, it's about stressful pitches, not the total number. You will note that Horse didn't throw ONCE from the stretch last night. Well, you'd have noticed IF YOU WERE THERE...

 

[calsnowskier]

He never threw from the stretch? Wow!!

I wonder how many other pitchers who threw Perfectos never threw from the stretch...

I also wonder what the record for most road-walk-off wins are for a season...

 

[dredinis21]

This. Repped. Pitch counts are important for DEVELOPING pitchers. For vets, it's about stressful pitches, not the total number. You will note that Horse didn't throw ONCE from the stretch last night. Well, you'd have noticed IF YOU WERE THERE...

I don't think it's "pantshitty" and this has nothing to do with DEVELOPING pitchers. There are plenty of examples where after no-no's in which starting pitchers are extended, the pitchers look fatigued or get bombed earlier in games then the team is used to seeing. I'm simply looking at Cain with a fresh new contract and asking if we should back off his high pitch count for a start or two. None of that seems "pantshitty" to me and nothing of what I said had anything to do with a DEVELOPING pitcher. As far as stressful pitches, couldn't one say that the last three innings of yesterday's perfecto could be seen as stressful pitches given the magnitude of the event?

 

[filosofy29]

I don't think it's "pantshitty" and this has nothing to do with DEVELOPING pitchers. There are plenty of examples where after no-no's in which starting pitchers are extended, the pitchers look fatigued or get bombed earlier in games then the team is used to seeing. I'm simply looking at Cain with a fresh new contract and asking if we should back off his high pitch count for a start or two. None of that seems "pantshitty" to me and nothing of what I said had anything to do with a DEVELOPING pitcher. As far as stressful pitches, couldn't one say that the last three innings of yesterday's perfecto could be seen as stressful pitches given the magnitude of the event?

I agree, I don't think it was pantshitty; it seemed like more of a question/observation of yours. I think that the coaching staff will watch him a little more closely the next two starts or so. That said, I don't think this will affect Cainer too much.

 

[msgkings322]

I agree, I don't think it was pantshitty; it seemed like more of a question/observation of yours. I think that the coaching staff will watch him a little more closely the next two starts or so. That said, I don't think this will affect Cainer too much.

After Santana's no-no he got shelled his next start, the manager blamed himself for letting him throw so many pitches.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Can somebody provide a link to a site where pitches are broken down by type *in a particular start* (such as last night )? IIRC, fastballs and changeups are a lot less stressful on the arm than (say) curveballs and sliders.

I would imagine, Cain being Cain, that he threw more FBs and changups than all other pitches combined - by a pretty large margin.

 

[gp956]

Can somebody provide a link to a site where pitches are broken down by type *in a particular start* (such as last night )? IIRC, fastballs and changeups are a lot less stressful on the arm than (say) curveballs and sliders.

I would imagine, Cain being Cain, that he threw more FBs and changups than all other pitches combined - by a pretty large margin.

LINK to Matt Cain's PitchFX page for last night's game at brooks.net

p.s. I'n not sure all change-ups are stress free. Timmy's isn't.

 

[calsnowskier]

Can somebody provide a link to a site where pitches are broken down by type *in a particular start* (such as last night )? IIRC, fastballs and changeups are a lot less stressful on the arm than (say) curveballs and sliders.

I would imagine, Cain being Cain, that he threw more FBs and changups than all other pitches combined - by a pretty large margin.

Not a stat site, but Baggs provided a breakdown...

EXTRA BAGGS: Cain doesn't forget the umpires, etc.

Matt Cain threw 65 fastballs, 23 sliders, 21 changeups and 16 curveballs. Of his 125 pitches, the most ever required to pitch a perfect game, 85 were strikes.

He threw first-pitch strikes to 19 of the 27 batters he faced.

Of his career-high 14 strikeouts, 11 came on fastballs. Cain said he wasn’t trying for strikeouts, but he kept getting in favorable counts and had especially good movement. He kept throwing to the edges and hitting his spots.

 

[filosofy29]

After Santana's no-no he got shelled his next start, the manager blamed himself for letting him throw so many pitches.

Sorry msg, I don't buy that as a very good comparison. Cain is almost 6 years younger, hasn't had the same injury history as Santana, and won't face the Yankees at Yankee Stadium his next start. Is there a huge difference between a 108 pitch start and a 125 pitch start??? My arm never could tell the difference between 17 pitches (and no, I never threw 125 pitches, but I did probably throw 80-85 pitches and I couldn't tell you if I threw low 70 count or mid 80 count by my arm).....especially after a 4 day break (and yes I know they still do bullpen and throwing sessions in-between). Obviously, who knows, Cain may get blown out next game, but that's baseball.

In my humble opinion, I think a lot of times pitchers get lit up after no-hitters and perfect games because mentally they're tired more than physically. It's almost like at work where if you focus hard and work hard to land a big account or find a way to cut your expenses.....the next day at work, sometimes you kind of "let your foot off of the gas pedal" so to speak.

 

[msgkings322]

Sorry msg, I don't buy that as a very good comparison. Cain is almost 6 years younger, hasn't had the same injury history as Santana, and won't face the Yankees at Yankee Stadium his next start. Is there a huge difference between a 108 pitch start and a 125 pitch start??? My arm never could tell the difference between 17 pitches (and no, I never threw 125 pitches, but I did probably throw 80-85 pitches and I couldn't tell you if I threw low 70 count or mid 80 count by my arm).....especially after a 4 day break (and yes I know they still do bullpen and throwing sessions in-between). Obviously, who knows, Cain may get blown out next game, but that's baseball.

In my humble opinion, I think a lot of times pitchers get lit up after no-hitters and perfect games because mentally they're tired more than physically. It's almost like at work where if you focus hard and work hard to land a big account or find a way to cut your expenses.....the next day at work, sometimes you kind of "let your foot off of the gas pedal" so to speak.

Never said it was, just throwing it out there. Cain is the absolute epitome of a 'horse' so I'm not that worried.

 

[gp956]

BTW, you can look at Cain's 2010 game log to see 4 instances of him with 120+ pitchers (two one hitters there), and then what he did the following start. Personally, the pitch count of this game was not excessive - for Cain. Only 8, and 9 more pitches than his last two games. You can use the link above to see his game logs from other years.

The Santana comparison is not a good one. Johan is just a year removed from shoulder surgery, has never been a "high" pitch count pitcher, and has been essentially a 100 +/- 5 pitch pitcher for many years now. Comparatively, Cain would have needed to throw about 150 pitches to reach Santana's level of effort.

 

[Heathbar012]

Sorry msg, I don't buy that as a very good comparison. Cain is almost 6 years younger, hasn't had the same injury history as Santana, and won't face the Yankees at Yankee Stadium his next start. Is there a huge difference between a 108 pitch start and a 125 pitch start??? My arm never could tell the difference between 17 pitches (and no, I never threw 125 pitches, but I did probably throw 80-85 pitches and I couldn't tell you if I threw low 70 count or mid 80 count by my arm).....especially after a 4 day break (and yes I know they still do bullpen and throwing sessions in-between). Obviously, who knows, Cain may get blown out next game, but that's baseball.

In my humble opinion, I think a lot of times pitchers get lit up after no-hitters and perfect games because mentally they're tired more than physically. It's almost like at work where if you focus hard and work hard to land a big account or find a way to cut your expenses.....the next day at work, sometimes you kind of "let your foot off of the gas pedal" so to speak.

Great analogy, regardless.