1977 MLB Draft CHAMPIONSHIP

[Nosferatu]

Players drafted must have played during the 1977 season. Please vote for the best TEAM.


TEAM E

Lineup

1) SS Alan Trammell R
2)2nd Lou Whitaker L
3)RF. Bobby Bonds. R
4) DH Tony Perez. R
5) 1st Keith Hernandez L
6) 3rd Dick Allen. R
7) LF Joe Rudi. R
8) C Ray Fosse. R
9) CF Gary Maddux. R

Bench

C - Jim Sundberg. R
SS - Chris Speier (Utl Infielder) R
Pinch Runner-Ron Leflore. R
PH - Jerry Turner. L

Rotation:

SP - Tom Seaver. R
SP - Vida Blue. L
SP - Charlie Hough. R
SP - Mark Fidrych. R
SP - Doyle Alexander. R


Bullpen:

RP - Mac Scarce. L
RP. -Bob Apodaca. R
RP - Tom House. L
RP - Jim Crawford. L
RP - Bob Sykes. L
RP - Pedro Borbon. R

Closer
Willie Hernandez. R

VS

TEAM J

Batting Order
CF - Willie Wilson
2B - Rod Carew
3B - George Brett
LF - George Foster
RF - Jack Clark
C - Joe Torre
DH - Rico Carty
1B - George Scott
SS - Larry Bowa

Bench
C - Tim McCarver
1B - Mike Jorgensen
3B - Bob Bailey
MI - Frank Taveras
OF - Tony Armas
OF - Bobby Tolan

Rotation
Luis Tiant
Wilbur Wood
Mike Cuellar
Gary Nolan
Mike Caldwell

Bullpen
Joe Hoerner
Elias Sosa
Steve Mingori
Larry Anderson
Joe Niekro

 

[Ritzarmy]

Tough matchup with Team E's star pitching lead by Seaver vs Team J's hitters with George Brett.

 

[Nosferatu]

This is a great matchup, hope we can get more than 8 or 10 votes!

 

[broncosmitty]

Excellent matchup.

Determining factor for me, the up the middle and first base defense of Team E. Couple that with and one-two punch of Seaver and Blue, the speed of LaFlore off the bench, an absolutely dominant #4 starter(until a knee injury lead to an arm injury which lead to a very young retirement.) a 5 time 30-30 hitter in the 3hole, Tony Perez hitting cleanup and possibly the first trade in Mock History that didn't go in Ritz' favor, I cast my vote in good faith, with confidence.

 

[blstoker]

Line up (G AB R H 2B/3B/HR RBI SB BB BA/OBP/SLG/OPS TB)
Team E 1329 4987 878 1564 284/47/221 830 139 617 .314/.386/.522/.909 2605
Team J 1313 5103 923 1729 258/67/203 905 162 577 .339/.404/.535/.939 2730

Bench
Team E 560 1906 289 544 84/9/41 235 85 221 .285/.356/.403/.760 769
Team J 856 2882 481 823 144/28/113 444 144 328 .286/.357/.473/.830 1362

Pitchers (W-L ERA G GS GF CG SHO SV IP H R ER BB SO BF WHIP)
Team E 133-81 2.49 549 183 242 94 23 88 2080 1707 639 575 135 597 1404 8334 1.108
Team J 131-65 2.10 428 186 113 97 31 32 1790 1367 499 417 109 434 1157 7047 1.006

Fielding (G GS CG INN CH PO A E DP % PB WP SB CS % PkO)
Team E 1167 1132 1050 10044.2 5065 3590 1412 63 340 .987 5 46 41 52 55.91 1
Team J 1128 1109 1025 9700.1 5103 3681 1359 63 361 .988 13 48 38 36 48.65 0

Awards (HoF CY MVP AS GG WAR*)
Team E 2 5 4 70 34 126.3
Team J 2 1 4 77 13 120.9

*combined oWAR, dWAR and pitcher's WAR from best seasons used in statistics above.

 

[blstoker]

Line Up vs. Opposing Starters

(AB H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA/OBP/SLG/OPS SH SF IBB HBP)
Team E 915 228 36 5 35 112 62 150 .249/.298/.414/.962 8 6 7 2
Team J 1338 402 49 16 40 178 136 163 .300/.369/.451/1.120 7 11 11 10

 

[blstoker]

Breakdown of how lineups fair against opposing starter
(H/AB 2B/3B/HR BA/OBP/SLG/OPS # of players faced)

Team E vs. Luis Tiant
38/171 7/1/2 .222/.244/.310/.554 8
Team J vs. Tom Seaver
103/387 14/3/8 .266/.314/.380/.694 8

Team E vs. Wilbur Wood
37/165 4/0/7 .224/.260/.376/.636 7
Team J vs. Vida Blue
88/261 9/3/8 .337/.401/.487/.888 8

Team E vs. Mike Cuellar
63/246 8/1/16 .256/.325/.492/.817 6
Team J vs. Charlie Hough
83/312 7/3/8 .266/.369/.385/.754 8

Team E vs. Gary Nolan
31/118 6/1/5 .263/.326/.407/.784 6
Team J vs. Mark Fidrych
12/57 0/0/0 .211/.328/.211/.539 4

Team E vs. Mike Caldwell
59/215 11/2/5 .274/.322/.414/.736 9
Team J vs. Doyle Alexander
116/321 19/7/16 .361/.416/.614/1.030 8

 

[blstoker]

So, it appears to more like this

Tom Seaver vs. Luis Tiant - Winner: Tiant
Vida Blue vs. Wilbur Wood - Winner: Wood
Charlie Hough vs. Mike Cuellar - Winner: Toss Up
Mark Fidrych vs. Gary Nolan - Winner: Fidrych
Doyle Alexander vs. Mike Caldwell - Winner: Caldwell

 

[blstoker]

Individual batters:

Team E:
Alan Tramell - 17/54 2/1/2 .315/.351/.500/.851
Lou Whitaker - 10/52 2/0/0 .192/.263/.231/.494
Bobby Bonds - 32/127 4/0/7 .252/.336/.449/.784
Tony Perez - 51/125 6/3/4 .248/.260/.440/.700
Keith Hernandez - 9/24 2/0/1 .375/.444/.583/1.028
Dick Allen - 35/131 4/1/9 .267/.342/.519/.862
Joe Rudi - 56/224 8/0/6 .250/.297/.366/.663
Ray Fosse - 27/133 4/0/5 .203/.226/.346/.572
Gary Maddox - 11/45 4/0/1 .244/.261/.400/.661

Team J
Willie Wilson 51/176 2/2/1 .290/.342/.341/.683
Rod Carew 52/152 6/4/1 .342/.422/.454/.876
George Brett 82/256 17/5/8 .320/.408/.520/.928
George Foster 37/112 2/0/6 .330/.423/.509/.932
Jack Clark 26/92 2/1/7 .283/.389/.554/.943
Joe Torre 29/113 2/1/4 .257/.282/.398/.680
Rico Carty 43/128 8/2/5 .336/..410/.547/.957
George Scott 40/112 4/0/7 .357/.424/.580/1.004
Larry Bowa 42/197 6/1/1 .213/.236/.269/.505

 

[blstoker]

Sorry all these are so late, but had to watch the Seahawks game.

 

[broncosmitty]

So, it appears to more like this

Tom Seaver vs. Luis Tiant - Winner: Tiant
Vida Blue vs. Wilbur Wood - Winner: Wood
Charlie Hough vs. Mike Cuellar - Winner: Toss Up
Mark Fidrych vs. Gary Nolan - Winner: Fidrych
Doyle Alexander vs. Mike Caldwell - Winner: Caldwell

You're telling me the numbers favor Louis Tiant over Tom Seaver? Im sorry stoke, but that's hard to wrap my brain around.

 

[blstoker]

You're telling me the numbers favor Louis Tiant over Tom Seaver? Im sorry stoke, but that's hard to wrap my brain around.

Check em out - Team J's batters had significantly more success against Seaver than Team E's batter had against Tiant. Team J's 3-7 batters all hit for .280 or higher in their careers against Seaver, where only Whitaker on Team E had more than 3 ABs and achieved at least the same average (.333).

No, Tiant was not a better pitcher than Seaver, but there's more to this isn't Tiant vs. Seaver, it's Tiant against Team E vs. Seaver against Team J. That's the comparison I used to come up with that conclusion.

 

[blstoker]

The only pitcher on Team E to hold Team J's line up to under a .266 batting average was Fidrych (.211). On the other side, Mike Caldwell was the only Team J pitcher to allow an average that high but he pitches against Alexander who gave up a career .361 BA to Team J (in 321 ABs).

Matchup One; Seaver vs. Tiant:
Numbers favor Tiant
BA +.044, OBP +.070, SLG +.070, OPS +.140.

Matchup Two; Blue vs. Wood
Numbers favor Wood
BA +.113, OBP +.141, SLG +.111, OPS +.252

Matchup Three; Hough vs. Cuellar
Numbers Favor Hough
BA +.010, OBP -.044, SLG +.107, OPS +.063

Matchup Four; Fidrych vs. Nolan
Numbers favor Fidrych
BA +.052, OBP -.002, SLG +.247, OPS + .244

Matchup Five; Alexander vs. Caldwell
Numbers favor Caldwell
BA +.087, OBP +.084, SLG +.200, OPS +.294

 

[Ritzarmy]

This is waaaay to much math for my brain.

 

[Nosferatu]

I wonder if you asked every GM in the league the last 50 years who they would rather have Seaver or Tiant, I bet it would be 95% Seaver...

 

[steveringo]

Are we trying to determine who would win a seven game series? Or are we trying to determine the better team?

I'm guessing the charts and numbers are confusing people. If we eliminate the mumbo-jumbo and focus on the most important numbers....

OBP
E: 386
J: 404

SLG
E: 522
J: 535

ERA
E: 2.49
J: 2.10

WHIP
E: 1.108
J: 1.006

Team E has more HR, but less H, R, RBI.
Team E has more Saves

Team J has more put-outs & assists in less chances

Team J bench appears to have swept every stat.

I'm too lazy to look up WAR, OPS+ & ERA+, but based on the raw stats, I don't think much would change. It is pretty clear to me which team is better....

 

[UK Cowboy]

Are we trying to determine who would win a seven game series? Or are we trying to determine the better team?

I'm guessing the charts and numbers are confusing people. If we eliminate the mumbo-jumbo and focus on the most important numbers....

OBP
E: 386
J: 404

SLG
E: 522
J: 535

ERA
E: 2.49
J: 2.10

WHIP
E: 1.108
J: 1.006

Team E has more HR, but less H, R, RBI.
Team E has more Saves

Team J has more put-outs & assists in less chances

Team J bench appears to have swept every stat.

I'm too lazy to look up WAR, OPS+ & ERA+, but based on the raw stats, I don't think much would change. It is pretty clear to me which team is better....

Thats the thing, we have always played it like who would win a 7 game series with these guys at the top of their games. Using the numbers is a nice tool, but it's not the way I would go. If that's it, we all would just pull up everyones WAR and pick from that list. Problem is, if you look at the last 10 World Series Champs, I would bet there are no more than half the teams that won that had the best overall Saber numbers. For my own squad, in a 7 game series, I dont care what the Saber numbers say, if I'm trotting out an at their peak Carlton, Palmer and Morris twice and Richard once, they aren't losing 4 out of 7. Not a chance

 

[broncosmitty]

Check em out - Team J's batters had significantly more success against Seaver than Team E's batter had against Tiant. Team J's 3-7 batters all hit for .280 or higher in their careers against Seaver, where only Whitaker on Team E had more than 3 ABs and achieved at least the same average (.333).

No, Tiant was not a better pitcher than Seaver, but there's more to this isn't Tiant vs. Seaver, it's Tiant against Team E vs. Seaver against Team J. That's the comparison I used to come up with that conclusion.

My brain is incapable of figuring out how Seaver could possibly be ranked behind Tiant.

 

[blstoker]

For my own squad, in a 7 game series, I dont care what the Saber numbers say, if I'm trotting out an at their peak Carlton, Palmer and Morris twice and Richard once, they aren't losing 4 out of 7. Not a chance

That's the point. I don't much care for the sabermetrics myself, but there's more to a team than 4 starters. At their peak, Carlton and Palmer were really really good, but the numbers play out that they weren't much better (if better at all) than the combos other teams threw out there like Gaylord Perry & Fergie Jenkins, Catfish Hunter & Don Sutton, Tom Seaver & Vida Blue or Luis Tiant & Mike Cuellar. On the same note, Morris & Richard are great pitchers, but so are other team's pitchers, and by the numbers, there were other 3 & 4s just as good or better. So, you can't just put your entire case on a pitching staff and just mail the rest in, cause just about everyone has a staff that can shut you down, but at some point someone has got to hit.

 

[blstoker]

My brain is incapable of figuring out how Seaver could possibly be ranked behind Tiant.

He's not ranked behind, that's not what I was pointing out. I was saying that if Seaver were to pitch against the line up of Team J in a game where Tiant pitched against the line up of Team E, that Tiant had much more success against that line up than Seaver had against Team J's. That is all. So, if it were game one of a series between these two teams and these two pitchers were the starters of that game, then Tiant has the advantage to win that particular game based on his success versus Team E's batters. Has nothing to do with who's the better pitcher overall.