Reds injuries

[JohnU]

Decided to start a new thread based on one of RF03's comments about injuries, that I will clip in here.

You look across the league and injuries have been on the rise everywhere. Lots of teams have been losing some of their top guys to injuries ranging from strains to torn elbow ligaments. Injuries happen. I think the cliche of a general manager making his money through the draft and the depth chart applies in this case. This team is razor thin in terms of depth both at the minor and major league levels, even without the rash of injuries.

One thing I've noticed is that teams that lose their starting catcher for more than a few days tend to struggle. Can't say I have more than anecdotal proof of it.

Buster Posey, out in 2011, look where the Giants landed.
This year, Russell Martin out, look where the Parrots were and now, where they are.
When "PED" Ruiz was out, the Phillies went to hell.
The Nats never really recovered after their top catcher went on the shelf last year.
We shall soon see if the Wieters injury hits the Orioles.
I don't know how many other examples there are. But ... let's consider ...

Mesoraco ....

For those who think Pena and Barnhart filled in nicely, yes ... way better than we expected.
But the Reds do miss Ryan Hanigan. Seriously. A year ago when he was out, hurt, it showed.

You could still suck if your catcher isn't hurt -- if your catcher isn't any good.
But if you are the Cardinals and have Molina, who is unconscious, you tend to be fairly stable.
Lucroy is showing signs at Old Milwaukee.


In the case of the Reds, the injuries are a lot more complicated than that, since the middle of the batting order has been gutted and there is zero continuity in the lineup.
Still, with Mesoraco back, one would hope he steps up and takes charge of the ball diamond.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Catching is tough. No one is ever really healthy, and most are banged up- part of why catchers don't always hit a ton. The idea is to have a couple that can handle the job, and if you need one as an every day bat, better find another position for him to play when he's not catching. Pena can play 1b, and probably 3b. Mesoraco has been a C only so far.

Injuries aren't new. How they are dealt with now, is different than 25 years ago. They played through more injuries before, but also had careers ended by injuries better surgery extends now.

It's the same game it's always been, except the trends have been bent toward evolution of players in the PED era- smaller parks, lower mounds, the DH....specialty pitching roles and shifts aren't enough to counter all that, but decreased PED's have made pitching appear to be better. I doubt ERA's are any better than in the pre-PED era-60's and 70's, and expansion has allowed about 120 pitchers who would have been in the minors, to be on MLB rosters. Technology and scouting tools are better, and so is the science of training, but IMO, PED's and adaptation of environment based on their impacts, disguised as making the game more appealing, have also allowed people in the business to forget a lot of baseball 101. Any time a .270 hitter on pace for 12 HR and 100 K is allowed to wiff swinging away 3 times with runners at 1st & 2nd, no outs, behind by a run, I gotta question if the previous PED strategy is lagging behind the current less likely environment.

Yogi Berra or Buster Posey didnt play other positions because if their glove, they were allowed to get out from behind the plate because of their bat, and likelihood of staying healthier. That isn't new, but not everyone prescribes to it. Pitchers have pitch counts, but still blow arms. BA's and HR drop but they still hit away like getting a guy to 3b with only 1 out is an unobtainable goal.

 

[JohnU]

I also think part of the problem is expectations.
There are players who would suffer serious statistical harm if they were required to play through a bruised forearm.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Joey Votto...he has a sore left quad, gets lousy push off on his swing, his BA drops to about Brandon Phillips normal BA, and he hits the DL because they or he or the fans or all the above, don't want him playing at such an un-acceptable level. But we're ok with BP or Todd Frazier at full health hitting .258. Why ? Expectations. His, theirs and ours.

I'd rather have a gimpy .258 Votto than a healthy .200 hitting Santiago.

Who wouldn't ? Obviously, there are several with the Reds that disagree.

 

[redsfan03]

Now the Reds are saying that Votto "may not be back to 100%" at all this season. Good lord, this medical staff is full of winners...

 

[JohnU]

I think it's time Votto decided what exactly IS 100%.

And I am still not clear on why Price seems to think Marshall is somehow going to give him a quality inning. I mean -- CUT THE GUY. His arm is dead. Stop being popular with the players. The Reds have lost 5 games because of this guy that they don't get to play twice.

And Price also said that if this was September, Votto would not go on the DL.
So games in May that you lose will almost assure that there won't be any relevant games in September, so might as well just leave him off the roster until next year.

I'm into the RailCats now. Screw this tin-horn management.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Some people think the long term contract makes people expect a certain level of performance from Votto, and they are right. However, I think if he's gimpy, and can play without high risk of further injury, the guy needs to find his ass to work every day. I'd rather have half of Votto than all of Soto, or Lutz, or Santiago. Hey, nothing wrong with Pena playing 3b and Frazier playing LF if you want an extra bat.

The bottom line is, wether Votto is less than full capacity or not playing at all, other hitters have to pick up the slack. Where's Ludwick, Bruce, etc. ?

 

[JohnU]

Price saying if this was Sept., Votto would be in there.
That implies that he is healthy enough to play.
If he is healthy enough to play, then put him in. Doesn't do a damned bit of good to pretend that this team is going to be in contention in Sept., if they can't win in May.

 

[redsfan03]

Price saying if this was Sept., Votto would be in there.
That implies that he is healthy enough to play.
If he is healthy enough to play, then put him in. Doesn't do a damned bit of good to pretend that this team is going to be in contention in Sept., if they can't win in May.

Agreed. That logic is completely lost on me. It's the kind of thinking Dusty used to justify his lack of urgency, though he went ahead and continued that lack of urgency into September...

 

[chico ruiz]

forget about the dusty voodoo. there's something much more oppressive that's been going on for the last 30 years throughout all of baseball. i regret to inform you that the game most of us grew up with isn't coming back.
when i read many of these posts, they seem like cries for restoration of a bygone era. votto's knee, quad, has more to do with his huge contract than it does with his guts or a medical staff. the game has changed in very significant ways that tend to be overlooked or ignored. 'denial' to borrow from pop psychologists everywhere who like to 'project' thoughtfulness. the real truth is they could care less as long as they get their checks. the bigger, the better. votto is the highest paid red of all time. it's an insane amount of money to hit, catch, and throw a 9" sphere wrapped of yarn and covered in leather. 1507 referenced johnny bench. mantle is the first player who comes to my mind. it doesn't matter. because the truth is the game will never be played again with the all out ferocity that was intended. it was never meant to be a gentleman's game. when i see certain red sox players getting upset that escobar would dare take an extra base with the rays up by 5 in the 8th inning i get pissed. screw you ross and gomes. it's the way the game should be played. if a team is going to give you a base, take it. baseball was supposed to be relentless. screw the unwritten rules of the multi-million dollar ball players. this isn't softball forfeiture after the 5th inning. i came to the yard to see you guys get after it for 9 full innings. not jog to first, or stand at home and admire your double off the wall that should have been a triple. in fact, go into the base with spikes shin high more often when up by 10 runs. i'd settle for most slides being aggressive with contact. no mercy. what we have now is a watered down version of the 'game' my fellow posters. it's fakery. the real thing is gone forever. screw the corporate luxury boxes and screw the new catcher collision nonsense rule. screw the 10 dollar beer. screw the jumbotron and new challenge rule nonsense. 'but chico, they will get the call right more often.' screw it. it's just a way to sell more stuff. i haven't seen a manager totally flip his wig once this year. i miss that. come to think of it; screw the unfettered liars alex rodriguez and ryan braun whose unborn grandchildren are set for life. throwing friends and associates under the bus? for what? money, that's what. not the integrity of the game, that's for sure. money, and lots of it. they should pardon pete rose and let him come back to save what i -we all know- is missing. all-out kick-ass major league baseball.

 

[Redsfan1507]

My father told me some of the first signs of getting old were, you don't like the new music, and you think all the younger generation has lousy work ethic.

I guess I'm close.

Generally, the last 50-60 years of relatively good times, have incrementally made a lot of things easier, and baseball is no exception. The make more money for a game than great players made in a season not so long ago...and arguably, they don't suffer as much for it. I think they call that progress.

Now, tough guys with dirt on the uni that don't miss many games, are called throwbacks. They're rare.

 

[JohnU]

There certainly are day-to-day components of the game that annoy me, the chief one being how hitters back out of the box every pitch, adjust their gloves, read the bat label, look around, take a couple of swings and hold up their back hand until they have "dug in."
Next pitch, same thing.

That is the cosmetic anger that I feel.

I can't say for sure how many players sandbag it, but I do know that the med staffs and the players are pretty easily swayed into believing that an injury deserves 2 weeks off to heal.

I've lost respect for Votto because of what I wrote earlier. The manager says he could play if the chips were down. The chips ARE down and Votto is AWOL.

Jack Hannahan needs no more recovery time. He should be released.
Sean Marshall should be released, not part of some tethering system that Price insists is part of him not "being all the way back yet." Hint: We don't need pitchers to get better on the job. See ya, Sean!

Why do I know that Marshall is going on some kind of mysterious ailment DL the day Latos gets back. Latos has been "long tossing" since March. Either pitcher or GTFO. Take the year off if needed. Just man up to it.

Price and Jocketty have done very little since November to instill a sense of adventure for the fans.
At first, I defended the lack of motion as being one that suggested the team we had could be trusted to perform. Little by little, some of the injuries began to smell like fish.

Think about it: The one player who was genuinely HURT was Chapman, and he really is pitching better now than before. He's probably the last old-school guy on the team.

Mesoraco and Schumaker get a pass, too.

Not much else about this fraudulent team is worth liking.

 

[eburg5000]

Chico, I agree with everything you said.

 

[chico ruiz]

it's painful to type the words mr. eburg, and I wish it were that simple 1507. I really do. angry old chico sitting on the porch yelling at dogs, stray cats, and butterflies that land on dandelions. one day ol' chico was yelling at nothing. might have been a mole. i'd have more hope if i was simply a ranting old guy. but, i like some of the newer music and i don't think the younger generation has lousy work ethic. and when a fan 20 years my junior is sick and tired of going to the ballpark -just to be disappointed at the lack of effort given by the players- i know i can't be too far off my rocker. baseball didn't change a whole lot from 1934 to 1974. but, the changes from 1974 to 2014 have been exponential. take a look at the number and trajectory of dead balls (meaning a walk, strikeout, or home run in a at bat) in that time span. gives a whole new meaning to the dead ball era. what it really means is: no action on the field. and again, it's something that doesn't get talked about enough. there's a lot of complacency out there among the fan base. i still love the game too 1507, but the competitive essence that made it special has systematically been stolen from us. these guys aren't playing the same game you did in the 70's. they simply do not run the bases anymore. i mean really run the bases. the inability to hit to all fields is alarming, and the subsequent lost art of the hit and run. i'm hopeful the game is transitioning back. the pendulum swing, as so many analogize. but, i find it fruitless to complain about the reds specifically, when it's the game as a whole that needs retrofitted.

 

[Hit-n-Run]

Not only is the hit and run a lost art, but " hitting behind the runner as well". I'm not sure the typical modern fan even knows what it means, much less knows what it is when they see it.

 

[Hit-n-Run]

I don't think it's complacency Chico. Just as the way the game is played has changed, so has the casual fan.

A younger couple arriving in the middle innings sat down next to me this past home stand. The guy was attempting to impress the young lady with his baseball knowledge. After a inning or so he inquiries who was playing LF? I respond Ryan Ludwick.....he counters with "I didn't even know Ludwick played LF". I looked over to my wife who rarely attends the games and even she rolled her eyes on that one.

For a lot of ticket purchasers it's a social event, not a baseball game. They arrive and meander about the concourse enjoying a cold beverage. Around the 3rd or 4th inning they find a seat, not necessarily theirs, blocking the view of a fan actually watching the game. After a few selfies, a text or two, an instagram and a couple innings they're back to rejoin the hoards of socializing fans that couldn't tell you who won the game much less the score.

When they announce the attendance at GABP, the true baseball fans make up a minority percentage.

 

[JohnU]

Not only is the hit and run a lost art, but " hitting behind the runner as well". I'm not sure the typical modern fan even knows what it means, much less knows what it is when they see it.

I watched my minor league team put down 5 bunts today in a doubleheader -- three of them for hits -- and almost squeezed in a runner in the bottom of the 8th. Had the guy on third gotten a better jump with 1 out, he'd have scored. Was tagged out at the plate on a nice defensive recovery by the pitcher.

The concept of playing small ball is lost on the modern team. It's not the same as manufacturing runs. Small ball is a team craft, an art form and a commitment to a type of offense. It also compels good defense and holding runners on base, getting a good jump on balls to the right side, knowing when to tag up and when to go halfway.

Those are skills that most players know and learn but, if you want a TEAM to win with it, everybody has to be on the same page. If you ain't bunting, the defense wonders why. You could be stealing, but aren't. They play in, or up the middle. Then you hit behind the runner.

You can also score 9 runs with small-ball. The concept is not a 2-1 game. It's beating teams with the skills you are best suited to execute. A 2-1 score might be a pitcher's duel but it isn't small ball.

Gary has one home run this year after 2 weeks of the season. ONE.

This Reds team wants to play long ball, can't play small ball and is completely bi-polar. What Price wants to do can't happen with these hitters. And the hitting coach clearly does not understand small ball. Just running bases helter-skelter is not how it's done.

 

[Redsfan1507]

I think the fact that the Reds are among the league leaders in SB alludes to higher priority in at least that page in the chapter of small ball, than they displayed in several years. It isn't just Hamilton stealing either.

Bunts, I haven't a clue if they're on the rise for the Reds or not. Quite frankly, other than Hamilton bunting for a hit, without runners on base, it's moot point...and the Reds haven't had an overabundance of runners on base.

Hitting behind the runner (unless you have a runner at 3b) always means hitting to the right side. To be honest, the Reds inability to do more of that, speaks nearly as much to lefty hitters unable to pull the ball (into an ever increasing shift ) as righties not trying to pull. It's not just philosophy lacking, but the ability of the hitter to adjust to the pitch and defense thrown at them. IMO, much of the Reds issues at the plate revolve around hitters without a sound understanding of the concept of going to the plate looking for the first pitch in the preferred location for the desired task. Too many guys taking pitches in good locations, and too many guys trying to pull the outside pitch behind in the count...in part, the result of not swinging at the earlier groove ball.

The best thing a hitting coach can do, is make it simple. The Reds need to understand that coming to the plate for the first pitch, they need to be ready to hit a pitch in a shoebox sized zone in their sweet spot for the situation- not just for a homer. If they get 2 strikes, then they're just protecting, within the true, entire zone. Many Reds hitters look like they're just guessing, instead of having a plan. Also, Jay Bruce needs to realize he isn't Ted Williams- instead of outs hit to the shift, he needs to put something in play the opposite way....Several times.... Until the defense changes strategy or gives him pitches he can drive over the shift....He's going to say he's not comfortable doing that...and needs to be told they're not comfortable with him hitting .215 either. Votto hitting oppage at a .320 clip is fine, but not at a .250 clip...he needs to work to pull the inside pitch more. BP, needs to target RC more, instead of pulling everything in hopes of hitting 18 short park HR at a .260 pace. Etc, etc.

It's not rocket science, but old habits are hard to break. If you give your dog a treat every time he licks his ass, eventually, he'll keep doing it until his ass is raw. Most of these hitters have been pumped to go long for years. Their minor league records don't always indicate that was their natural state, but have been so "advised" that their preverbial ass is raw. It may take a while to get mindless pullaholics to be conscious hitters to another, better result.

 

[Redsfan1507]

What's black and white and Red all over ?

The DL.

 

[HammerDown]