Pittsburgh Pirates ownership

[ELYEAH82]

I was thinking about their situation, and the fact that tax payers built their new stadium. Can the league/city/state force the sale of the Pirates due to the owners lack of success. Their epic run of sub .500 seasons point to the fact the owner is not willing to compete with real MLB teams.

 

[evolver115]

I'm fairly certain that the only way Nutting can be forced to sell the team is through the commissioners office.

I agree with u about the amount of money the city/state has put towards PNC Park, u would think the people could have a say, but that's not the way the contract was written. Nutting is here for good, unless he sells it on his own accord.

 

[ELYEAH82]

Which is the point, why isnt the league doing something about. This team is the biggest joke in pro sports if you can still call them a pro team at this point

 

[SFNL]

I gave up years ago... I just don't give a fuck anymore

 

[ELYEAH82]

I wouldnt say I was a fan but just having them in the town I grew up in is embarassing. I probably would pay attention if they werent so terrible

 

[SFNL]

I was of little league age when the killer B's were ripping it up. I have no clue why kids would get into baseball in this area anymore. There is nothing to be excited about when it comes to baseball in Pittsburgh

 

[ELYEAH82]

I was in Jr High when Sid Bream ended baseball in pittsburgh in 1992

 

[evolver115]

What is most upsetting to me since the new regime has taken over for Littlefield with new GM Neal Huntington and President Frank Coonely, is their ability in evaluating major and minor league talent. Allow me to elaborate...

In late 2007, a decision was made amongst these two men that the only way to put a winner back in Pittsburgh was to blow up the existing major league roster. I've put together a list of players that were sent away, and what those players subsequently brought in return.

12/07 Salomon Torres traded for Marino Salas and Kevin Roberts
(pirates lost this trade)

3/08 Todd Redmond traded for Tyler Yates
(even)

7/08 Xavier Nady, Damaso Marte traded for Jeff Karstens, Dan McCutchen, Ross Olendorf and Jose Tabata
(pirates won this trade)

7/08 Jason Bay traded for Craig Hansen, Brandon Moss, Andy LaRoche and Bryan Morris
(pirates epic loss in this trade)

8/08 Jose Bautista traded for Robinson Diaz
(Pirates epic loss in this trade)

12/08 Ronny Paulino traded for Jason Jaramillo
(pirates lost this trade)

6/09 Nate Mclouth traded for Charlie Morton, Jeff Locke and Gorkys Hernandez
(pirates lost this trade)

6/09 Nyjer Morgan Sean Burnett traded for Joel Hanrahan and lastings Milledge
(even)

7/09 Adam Laroche traded for Argenis Diaz and Hunter Strickland
(pirates lost this trade)

7/09 Jack Wilson and Ian Snell traded for Nate Adcock, Jeff Clement, Ron Cedeno, Brett Lorin and Aaron Pribanic
(pirates lost this trade)

7/09 Freddy Sanchez for Tim Alderson
(Pirates epic loss in this trade)

7/09 Jon Grabow and Tom Gorzolanny traded for Jose Ascaino,Kevin Hart and Josh Harrison
(pirates epic loss in this trade)

11/09 Jessie Chavez traded for Aki Iwamura
(pirates epic loss in this trade)

It seems like a daunting task to have this many flame outs over a two year period since these clowns have taken over, but this is REAL!!!!

Our best players before Neal and Frank took over were Jason Bay, Xavier Nady, Damaso Marte, John Grabow, Freddy Sanchez, Jack Wilson and Salomon Torres. On lesser abilities our second tier talent was Tom Gorzolanny(rotation in CHI), Adam Laroche(starts for ARZ, Jose Bautista(All-Star, leads MLB in HR's), Ronny Paulino(starts for FLA) and Nate Mclouth(bench player in ATL).

The absolute only trade of the above mentioned 12 players that brought back a return that could be viewed as a win would be the trade of Xavier Nady and Damaso Marte for Ross Olhendorf, Jose Tabata, Jeff Karstens and Dan Mcutchen. The only win was a return of two back of the rotation pitchers, a singles hitting left fielder and a unproven SP back in AAA. All other trades are failures bordering on the minor up to EPIC proportions.

The pirates may have changed the GM and President, but the song painfully remains the same.

 

[ELYEAH82]

The Pirates are always looking to ditch payroll. So the owner can get his revenue sharing money instead of competing. The league needs to step in and do something. They try to sell the fan on the economics of the game but no team has ever been this bad over this long.

#29 Pittsburgh Pirates - Forbes.com

"The Pittsburgh Pirates play second fiddle to the Steelers in their football-crazed city and have been hammered by horrible attendance. Still, thanks to MLB's revenue sharing system, the Bucs make a fat profit. In January board member and former managing general partner of the Pirates, Kevin McClatchy, sold his few remaining shares to principal owner Bob Nutting. McClatchy, who ran the Pirates during most of its streak of 16 straight losing seasons, also gave up his board post. The Pirates have been notorious cheapskates. But Nutting may change that as last year the franchise broke ground on a $5 million baseball academy in the Dominican Republic and kicked in $2 million towards renovations on its spring training complex in Bradenton, Fla. "

 

[anderwho2513]

12/08 Ronny Paulino traded for Jason Jaramillo
(pirates lost this trade)

I don't think anyone won this trade. The Phillies just flipped him before he even played a regular season game with them for some shitty lefty reliever from San Fran.

 

[evolver115]

I don't think anyone won this trade. The Phillies just flipped him before he even played a regular season game with them for some shitty lefty reliever from San Fran.

Jason Jaramillo was just optioned to AAA this week after hitting below .200 for the first half. The buccos definitely did not win this trade.

 

[HonusWagner66]

7/08 Jason Bay traded for Craig Hansen, Brandon Moss, Andy LaRoche and Bryan Morris
(pirates epic loss in this trade)

I wouldn't say epic. The Pirates had to deal Bay. He wasn't gonna stay in Pittsburgh. Boston couldn't even keep him. They didn't get a great return for him, so it's a loss. But not an epic loss. Bryan Morris still has potential too.

8/08 Jose Bautista traded for Robinson Diaz
(Pirates epic loss in this trade)

There isn't a single Pirates fan that wouldn't have dealt Bautista at the time. I don't fault them. He sucked.

12/08 Ronny Paulino traded for Jason Jaramillo
(pirates lost this trade)

Nobody won/loss that trade. Both players suck.

6/09 Nate Mclouth traded for Charlie Morton, Jeff Locke and Gorkys Hernandez
(pirates lost this trade)

LOLOLOL McLouth is batting .168/.279/.265/ with 3 HR and an OPS+ of 48 this season. Epic win for the Pirates. No idea how you can call that a loss. He's been terrible since he left Pittsburgh.

7/09 Adam Laroche traded for Argenis Diaz and Hunter Strickland
(pirates lost this trade)

How is getting anything in return for half a season of Adam LaRoche, who at the time was batting below .250, a loss?

7/09 Jack Wilson and Ian Snell traded for Nate Adcock, Jeff Clement, Ron Cedeno, Brett Lorin and Aaron Pribanic
(pirates lost this trade)

Wilson has batted .249/.282/.316 this season. Has played 61 games. On probably the worst offensive team in baseball. Snell is a mess with an ERA over 6. Not to mention there was no way he would ever pitch for the Pirates again. No way that was a loss.

7/09 Freddy Sanchez for Tim Alderson
(Pirates epic loss in this trade)


Sanchez is batting .257/.317/.321 this season. Alderson had a shitty start to the year but is rebounding. Still 21 years old. Still a solid prospect.

7/09 Jon Grabow and Tom Gorzolanny traded for Jose Ascaino,Kevin Hart and Josh Harrison
(pirates epic loss in this trade)

Again, where are you getting this "epic loss"? Grabow's ERA is over 7. Gorzelanny is mediocre and was terrible in the end with the Pirates. Harrison is having a very good year and is a big part of an organization that needs depth in the middle infield.

11/09 Jessie Chavez traded for Aki Iwamura
(pirates epic loss in this trade)

Chavez has been traded twice since he left Pittsburgh. ERA over 5 this season. Iwamura was well worth the risk. Certainly wasn't a salary dump trade by the ownership.

The only legit talent NH had to work with was Jason Bay. And he had no hope to keep him. Wilson and Sanchez were fan favorites, but were not worth top prospects like some fans think for some reason.

Everyone else you mentioned are average at best players that no team would give any type of value up for. Well, McLouth was good. He sucks now. Pirates won the trade. Thank god they're not paying for him to bat sub-.200 in a bench role this season.

NH isn't building through those trades. He's building through the draft. Remember how they gave that Alvarez guy a huge signing bonus? Remember how they "reached" on Tony Sanchez, who is now one of BA's top 50 prospects? Remember how they drafted two of the best power arms out of high school in this past draft, instead of a mediocre college kid that would sign easy (still needs to sign them though).

Did I mention how the Pirates have been one of the top spenders in the draft ever since he took over?

Not only that they are actually trying internationally now.

I'm not giving NH a seal of approval, but your analysis of his job thus far is off. The Pirates weren't building through those trades. They're building through the draft.

I have no idea why people expect the Pirates to get All Stars for their mediocre players, that while together couldn't get the team any closer to a championship than the young team they have now.

 

[HonusWagner66]

I was thinking about their situation, and the fact that tax payers built their new stadium. Can the league/city/state force the sale of the Pirates due to the owners lack of success. Their epic run of sub .500 seasons point to the fact the owner is not willing to compete with real MLB teams.

First part: no. The league/city/state isn't ever going to force Nutting to sell the team due to "lack of success" on the field.

And you're blaming Bob Nutting for their epic run of sub .500 seasons? You know the guy became owner in 2007, right? 4 seasons is an epic run of .500 baseball?

 

[HonusWagner66]

Just so everyone knows, I'm not a Nutting/Huntington fanboy. I'm skeptical. In fact I really don't like Nutting at all. But I'm sure as hell not gonna blame them for 17 years of losing, or trading Jason Bay and Jose Bautista. Huntington needed more than 3 or 4 years to get this team competitive. It's a process in baseball. I doubt he'll even be around when that day comes. But he is building. The organizational depth is superior since he has arrived.

And I'm excited about the future of the Pirates.

McCutchen
Tabata
Walker
Alvarez

That's a great young start to a lineup.

They need pitching. To their credit have drafted heavy in the area and have a couple interesting prospects that will hopefully turn out well.

It'll be a couple years, but I'm not throwing in the towel just yet...

 

[ELYEAH82]

First part: no. The league/city/state isn't ever going to force Nutting to sell the team due to "lack of success" on the field.

And you're blaming Bob Nutting for their epic run of sub .500 seasons? You know the guy became owner in 2007, right? 4 seasons is an epic run of .500 baseball?

I always uderstood that Nutting took over as the primary owner in the same ownership group McClatchy was part of, if that is the case then yes he is to blame for the epic run. If this is not the case then he is still part of the issue, things havent exactly turned around since 07 either.

 

[HonusWagner66]

I always uderstood that Nutting took over as the primary owner in the same ownership group McClatchy was part of, if that is the case then yes he is to blame for the epic run. If this is not the case then he is still part of the issue, things havent exactly turned around since 07 either.

Nutting has been in charge since 2007. That's the same year Coonelly became President and Huntington became GM. To my understanding, the rest of the ownership group has changed a lot over 17 years, and has nowhere near the influence majority owners like Nutting or McClatchy have.

And I think things have turned around since 2007. No Bullingtons being taken #1 overall instead of the Alvarezs. There has been somewhat of an International breakthrough. Nutting has shown some willingness to spend money. Just not the way that's blatantly obvious to the casual Pirates fan (like FA, in which case he even has spent some money. No big FA is going to sign with the Pirates).

Like I said, I don't like Nutting either. But he hasn't been nearly as bad as some say. And NH has been decent given what he has to work with (no players and a cheap owner).

 

[evolver115]

7/08 Jason Bay traded for Craig Hansen, Brandon Moss, Andy LaRoche and Bryan Morris
(pirates epic loss in this trade)

I wouldn't say epic. The Pirates had to deal Bay. He wasn't gonna stay in Pittsburgh. Boston couldn't even keep him. They didn't get a great return for him, so it's a loss. But not an epic loss. Bryan Morris still has potential too.

It was epic because the greatest value player of his has yielded nothing to this point. If Bryan Morris is all that is salvaged from this trade.... and that remains a big if, it's still a loss.

8/08 Jose Bautista traded for Robinson Diaz
(Pirates epic loss in this trade)

There isn't a single Pirates fan that wouldn't have dealt Bautista at the time. I don't fault them. He sucked.

Point is they traded an everyday 3B for garbage. That's called an epic loss. Not to mention, Jose leads the MLB in homers this season.

12/08 Ronny Paulino traded for Jason Jaramillo
(pirates lost this trade)

Nobody won/loss that trade. Both players suck.

Ronnie is throwing out 30% of potential base stealers, and is an everyday starter for FLA. Jaramillo was optioned back to triple A. Pirates lost this trade

6/09 Nate Mclouth traded for Charlie Morton, Jeff Locke and Gorkys Hernandez
(pirates lost this trade)

LOLOLOL McLouth is batting .168/.279/.265/ with 3 HR and an OPS+ of 48 this season. Epic win for the Pirates. No idea how you can call that a loss. He's been terrible since he left Pittsburgh.

I call it a loss because Nate represented the largest value at the time of his trade. His return has brought this team absolutely nothing.

7/09 Adam Laroche traded for Argenis Diaz and Hunter Strickland
(pirates lost this trade)

How is getting anything in return for half a season of Adam LaRoche, who at the time was batting below .250, a loss?

Because he's still averaging 75 RBI's a season, and would most likely be the leader in RBI's on this team, right now.

7/09 Jack Wilson and Ian Snell traded for Nate Adcock, Jeff Clement, Ron Cedeno, Brett Lorin and Aaron Pribanic
(pirates lost this trade)

Wilson has batted .249/.282/.316 this season. Has played 61 games. On probably the worst offensive team in baseball. Snell is a mess with an ERA over 6. Not to mention there was no way he would ever pitch for the Pirates again. No way that was a loss.

At best it's a split. Cedeno is the only player of any value that came in return

7/09 Freddy Sanchez for Tim Alderson
(Pirates epic loss in this trade)


Sanchez is batting .257/.317/.321 this season. Alderson had a shitty start to the year but is rebounding. Still 21 years old. Still a solid prospect.

HE WAS DEMOTED TO AA!! What does that tell you??? Pirates lost this trade

7/09 Jon Grabow and Tom Gorzolanny traded for Jose Ascaino,Kevin Hart and Josh Harrison
(pirates epic loss in this trade)

Again, where are you getting this "epic loss"? Grabow's ERA is over 7. Gorzelanny is mediocre and was terrible in the end with the Pirates. Harrison is having a very good year and is a big part of an organization that needs depth in the middle infield.

Gorzo is not mediocre. He's 6-7 with a 3.85 era on a horrible Cubs squad. That type of pitching on the Pirates starting 5 would put him in the #1 spot. My original point was they had high value guys that brought nothing in return

11/09 Jessie Chavez traded for Aki Iwamura
(pirates epic loss in this trade)

Chavez has been traded twice since he left Pittsburgh. ERA over 5 this season. Iwamura was well worth the risk. Certainly wasn't a salary dump trade by the ownership.

Are you smoking crack??? They paid this guy 4.00 million dollars to play in AAA!!! That's poor evaluation at it's finest!!!! If they would have properly evaluated this guy in his physical, they would have realized he hadn't recovered for his knee surgery... and therefore wasn't worth the risk. This is the whole point of my post. NH has very poor evaluation skills of major league talent. This trade is proof of how epic his skills are in this

The only legit talent NH had to work with was Jason Bay. And he had no hope to keep him. Wilson and Sanchez were fan favorites, but were not worth top prospects like some fans think for some reason.

Everyone else you mentioned are average at best players that no team would give any type of value up for. Well, McLouth was good. He sucks now. Pirates won the trade. Thank god they're not paying for him to bat sub-.200 in a bench role this season.

NH isn't building through those trades. He's building through the draft. Remember how they gave that Alvarez guy a huge signing bonus? Remember how they "reached" on Tony Sanchez, who is now one of BA's top 50 prospects? Remember how they drafted two of the best power arms out of high school in this past draft, instead of a mediocre college kid that would sign easy (still needs to sign them though).

He may not be building through trades, but his evaluation skills of major league talent is beyond pathetic.

Did I mention how the Pirates have been one of the top spenders in the draft ever since he took over?

That spending means absolutely nothing until there are results on the major league roster.

Not only that they are actually trying internationally now.

I'm not giving NH a seal of approval, but your analysis of his job thus far is off. The Pirates weren't building through those trades. They're building through the draft.


Not really. This post was about NH's poor evaluation of major league talent. Which, I believe I proved fairly convincingly.

I have no idea why people expect the Pirates to get All Stars for their mediocre players, that while together couldn't get the team any closer to a championship than the young team they have now

I don't expect him to get all-star talent. I don't remember posting that in this thread. What I do expect is for NH to win at least half of the trades he makes... thus far... it's probably closer to about 20%.

I Think you unfairly critiqued my post. There was only one trade NH truly won, and I made mention of it at the bottom of my previous post.. which you left out. The rest of his trades of current MLB players have been failures. You can't slice it up any other way.

 

[HonusWagner66]

It was epic because the greatest value player of his has yielded nothing to this point. If Bryan Morris is all that is salvaged from this trade.... and that remains a big if, it's still a loss.

It is a loss. Didn't argue that. But no one was gonna give the Pirates an All Star for a short term rental. They could have probably got better, but it's hard to say how much better.


Point is they traded an everyday 3B for garbage. That's called an epic loss. Not to mention, Jose leads the MLB in homers this season.

Bautista wasn't an everyday 3B when they traded him. He sucked. He didn't fit with the club. The fact that he's had a miraculous turnaround isn't the Pirates fault. No one could've predicted that.

Ronnie is throwing out 30% of potential base stealers, and is an everyday starter for FLA. Jaramillo was optioned back to triple A. Pirates lost this trade

I won't call getting rid of our catcher who was batting like .212 a loss, but whatever.

I call it a loss because Nate represented the largest value at the time of his trade. His return has brought this team absolutely nothing.

Locke is having a nice season and is a young pitcher. Morton still has some potential left in the tank, he needs to work on some stuff though. Not a lost cause by any means. Hasn't been given much help with the Pirates roster. Gorkys has some potential and is 22. All three of which I'd rather have than Nate McLouth, who the Pirates smartly ditched at the right time. No one was gonna give us their farm for a guy with 1 decent season.


Because he's still averaging 75 RBI's a season, and would most likely be the leader in RBI's on this team, right now.

He wouldn't be on the team, right now. He was gonna be a FA and would not have stayed in Pittsburgh.


At best it's a split. Cedeno is the only player of any value that came in return

Cedeno is better than Wilson and Snell wouldn't pitch for the Pirates, so it's an automatic win. The fact that they got Clement, who is serviceable with potential, and more only adds to the win.


HE WAS DEMOTED TO AA!! What does that tell you??? Pirates lost this trade

THAT HE IS STILL DEVELOPING!!! Jesus fucking Christ. They're prospects. They don't all fly through the minors in a year.

Gorzo is not mediocre. He's 6-7 with a 3.85 era on a horrible Cubs squad. That type of pitching on the Pirates starting 5 would put him in the #1 spot. My original point was they had high value guys that brought nothing in return

He has a 1.46 WHIP. He's mediocre. Comparing him to the Pirates' pitching is hardly a convincing argument. Keeping garbage because it's marginally better than other garbage isn't a recipe for success. Plus the relationship between Gorzo and the Bucs had worn thin. He need a fresh start.

Are you smoking crack??? They paid this guy 4.00 million dollars to play in AAA!!! That's poor evaluation at it's finest!!!! If they would have properly evaluated this guy in his physical, they would have realized he hadn't recovered for his knee surgery... and therefore wasn't worth the risk. This is the whole point of my post. NH has very poor evaluation skills of major league talent. This trade is proof of how epic his skills are in this

Taking a low risk/high reward on a FA is exactly what I'd want the Pirates to do. They had the money to risk Iwamura returning to form. That $4 million is nothing for the Pirates. They were below their self imposed cap so it didn't hurt.


Not really. This post was about NH's poor evaluation of major league talent. Which, I believe I proved fairly convincingly.

"their ability in evaluating major and minor league talent." <<<First sentence in your post.

I don't think you proved anything at all. You seem to think the Pirates should be bringing in major league talent from their trades. That's wasn't their intention. They were going for prospects, most of which are still developing and aren't ready to make judgements on. The major leaguers they did bring in are nothing more than stop gaps. No shit they're not all stars. No one was expecting them to be.

I don't expect him to get all-star talent. I don't remember posting that in this thread. What I do expect is for NH to win at least half of the trades he makes... thus far... it's probably closer to about 20%.

I Think you unfairly critiqued my post. There was only one trade NH truly won, and I made mention of it at the bottom of my previous post.. which you left out. The rest of his trades of current MLB players have been failures. You can't slice it up any other way.

I think you're completely wrong on half of them. Can't slice it any other way. Only trade I'm disappointed in was Bay. Your argument seems to be the Pirates haven't brought in Major League talent. That wasn't their goal. I really don't think you understand the whole organization depth thing.

 

[evolver115]

It was epic because the greatest value player of his has yielded nothing to this point. If Bryan Morris is all that is salvaged from this trade.... and that remains a big if, it's still a loss.

It is a loss. Didn't argue that. But no one was gonna give the Pirates an All Star for a short term rental. They could have probably got better, but it's hard to say how much better.

Once again, I never said the Pirates should expect an All-Star from the Jason Bay trade, or any trade, for that matter. If you want to have a legit discussion about this, try not to keep up with what I'm saying. What I do expect them to get is quality product in return... particularly when they trade their marque talent. They did not get quality in return for Bay.

Point is they traded an everyday 3B for garbage. That's called an epic loss. Not to mention, Jose leads the MLB in homers this season.

Bautista wasn't an everyday 3B when they traded him. He sucked. He didn't fit with the club. The fact that he's had a miraculous turnaround isn't the Pirates fault. No one could've predicted that.

Don't know what you classify as an everyday 3b, but Bautista had started 107 games before his trade, and had over 350 PA. He would have been on pace to start 140 games in the 2008 season. In my book, that's an everyday 3B. Face it, Pittsburgh lost this trade. Regardless of how well or poor Bautista has done in Tor, the player the Bucs got for him is no longer on a MLB roster.

Ronnie is throwing out 30% of potential base stealers, and is an everyday starter for FLA. Jaramillo was optioned back to triple A. Pirates lost this trade

I won't call getting rid of our catcher who was batting like .212 a loss, but whatever.

It's a loss because the player the pirates got in return for Paulino has been demoted, twice!!! You can call it whatever pleases you, but if you classify this as a win for Pittsburgh, your delusional.

I call it a loss because Nate represented the largest value at the time of his trade. His return has brought this team absolutely nothing.

Locke is having a nice season and is a young pitcher. Morton still has some potential left in the tank, he needs to work on some stuff though. Not a lost cause by any means. Hasn't been given much help with the Pirates roster. Gorkys has some potential and is 22. All three of which I'd rather have than Nate McLouth, who the Pirates smartly ditched at the right time. No one was gonna give us their farm for a guy with 1 decent season.

Again, I never said the Pirates were to expect an all-star in return, or.. as you call it here, their farm.... what I do expect is them to bring quality in return. Considering Nate was at a high value when he was dealt, the return he's brought back isn't looking all that impressive, at the moment. This trade still has time to show merit for pittsburgh.

Because he's still averaging 75 RBI's a season, and would most likely be the leader in RBI's on this team, right now.

He wouldn't be on the team, right now. He was gonna be a FA and would not have stayed in Pittsburgh.

I'm not going to speculate on whether or not Pittsburgh could have brought Adam back. If they were willing to plunk down 4.0mil on a AAA 2b, I see no reason why they could not put down an extra $500,000 for a 1B. He's on a 4.5 mil dollar contract for 2010. Regardless, he's gone. Hitting .273/.340/.493 with 77 RBI's in ARZ. Currently, the Buc's lost this trade.

At best it's a split. Cedeno is the only player of any value that came in return

Cedeno is better than Wilson and Snell wouldn't pitch for the Pirates, so it's an automatic win. The fact that they got Clement, who is serviceable with potential, and more only adds to the win.

Ah, no. He may be marginally better offensively, but he's no where near Wilson on defense. This trade is a split. Garbage in, garbage out. No one won this trade. Clement can't hit major league pitching, and cedeno is a below average SS. Much like wilson.

HE WAS DEMOTED TO AA!! What does that tell you??? Pirates lost this trade

THAT HE IS STILL DEVELOPING!!! Jesus fucking Christ. They're prospects. They don't all fly through the minors in a year.

None of the pirates prospects they brought in through these trades are flying through the minors. THAT's the WhOLE POINT OF MY FUCKING POST!!! This clown is no different. He's pure garbage, and was demoted shortly after his arrival to bradenton, where he's 3-2 with a 8.42 era.

Gorzo is not mediocre. He's 6-7 with a 3.85 era on a horrible Cubs squad. That type of pitching on the Pirates starting 5 would put him in the #1 spot. My original point was they had high value guys that brought nothing in return

He has a 1.46 WHIP. He's mediocre. Comparing him to the Pirates' pitching is hardly a convincing argument. Keeping garbage because it's marginally better than other garbage isn't a recipe for success. Plus the relationship between Gorzo and the Bucs had worn thin. He need a fresh start.

Big deal, he has 6 wins and seven losses with a 3.85 era in the majors. That's better than any of the pitching suspects the bucs brought in through these recent trades. They gave up on him too early.

Are you smoking crack??? They paid this guy 4.00 million dollars to play in AAA!!! That's poor evaluation at it's finest!!!! If they would have properly evaluated this guy in his physical, they would have realized he hadn't recovered for his knee surgery... and therefore wasn't worth the risk. This is the whole point of my post. NH has very poor evaluation skills of major league talent. This trade is proof of how epic his skills are in this

Taking a low risk/high reward on a FA is exactly what I'd want the Pirates to do. They had the money to risk Iwamura returning to form. That $4 million is nothing for the Pirates. They were below their self imposed cap so it didn't hurt.

I agree with your early assessment about low risk/high reward. But, spending 4.0 million dollars on an injured 2B isn't low risk. He became their highest paid postion player upon his arrival. He was not fully recovered from his surgery, and is now playing AAA baseball. That's not low risk. That's called poor evaluation and mis-management. You can't spin it any other way.

Not really. This post was about NH's poor evaluation of major league talent. Which, I believe I proved fairly convincingly.

"their ability in evaluating major and minor league talent." <<<First sentence in your post.

I don't think you proved anything at all. You seem to think the Pirates should be bringing in major league talent from their trades. That's wasn't their intention. They were going for prospects, most of which are still developing and aren't ready to make judgements on. The major leaguers they did bring in are nothing more than stop gaps. No shit they're not all stars. No one was expecting them to be.

Sure they are. some of these trades are close to being three years old, now. where is the return??? Where are the prospects???? Or should I say, suspects. They aren't here. And the one's that are here aren't showing anything of much promise. The only trade I made light of that pittsburgh won is the Nady/Marte trade to NY. Tabata and Olhendorf were wins for pittsburgh. The rest are losses bordering on marginal to epic losses.

I don't expect him to get all-star talent. I don't remember posting that in this thread. What I do expect is for NH to win at least half of the trades he makes... thus far... it's probably closer to about 20%.

I Think you unfairly critiqued my post. There was only one trade NH truly won, and I made mention of it at the bottom of my previous post.. which you left out. The rest of his trades of current MLB players have been failures. You can't slice it up any other way.

I think you're completely wrong on half of them. Can't slice it any other way. Only trade I'm disappointed in was Bay. Your argument seems to be the Pirates haven't brought in Major League talent. That wasn't their goal. I really don't think you understand the whole organization depth thing.

You can think whatever you want to about my post. Lying to yourself that the pirates somehow won half of these trades is pretty silly, though. At this point, they are lucky to have won 20% of them. It has the potential to go up if some of these prospects end up panning out. But, they have just as much potential to fail at this point, as they do to succeed.

 

[HonusWagner66]

Once again, I never said the Pirates should expect an All-Star from the Jason Bay trade, or any trade, for that matter. If you want to have a legit discussion about this, try not to keep up with what I'm saying. What I do expect them to get is quality product in return... particularly when they trade their marque talent. They did not get quality in return for Bay.


Yeah... I said they could've gotten better for Bay. Not a lot better, but better.

Don't know what you classify as an everyday 3b, but Bautista had started 107 games before his trade, and had over 350 PA. He would have been on pace to start 140 games in the 2008 season. In my book, that's an everyday 3B. Face it, Pittsburgh lost this trade. Regardless of how well or poor Bautista has done in Tor, the player the Bucs got for him is no longer on a MLB roster.

He wasn't gonna continue being an everyday third baseman for the Pirates because he sucked. The player they got for him is garbage and no longer on the Major League roster because no one was going to give anything up for Bautista because no one thought he was gonna be so good. There's not a man alive that would have predicted he would have the season he did. Hindsight is 20/20. Yeah, the Pirates lost the trade but I'm not gonna blame a GM for giving up on Bautista. Everyone wanted it to happen.


It's a loss because the player the pirates got in return for Paulino has been demoted, twice!!! You can call it whatever pleases you, but if you classify this as a win for Pittsburgh, your delusional.

Ummm, never said it was a win for Pittsburgh? Both players suck. Getting rid of a garbage catcher for anything isn't a big deal to me. Sorry.

Again, I never said the Pirates were to expect an all-star in return, or.. as you call it here, their farm.... what I do expect is them to bring quality in return. Considering Nate was at a high value when he was dealt, the return he's brought back isn't looking all that impressive, at the moment. This trade still has time to show merit for pittsburgh.

Nate didn't have as high a value as most Pirates fans seem to think. He had ONE DECENT year where he batted .276/.356/.497 with 26 home runs. No GM is gonna give up a great prospect for that. When the Pirates traded him he was batting in the .250s through 50 games. Like every player the Pirates trade, value wasn't nearly as high as Pirate fans think. They got a decent return for a guy who is now terrible. You call that a loss? The fact they got rid of a guy with a marginally high salary for anything makes it a win.

I'm not going to speculate on whether or not Pittsburgh could have brought Adam back. If they were willing to plunk down 4.0mil on a AAA 2b, I see no reason why they could not put down an extra $500,000 for a 1B. He's on a 4.5 mil dollar contract for 2010. Regardless, he's gone. Hitting .273/.340/.493 with 77 RBI's in ARZ. Currently, the Buc's lost this trade.

I'm pretty sure it was blatantly obvious to everyone who watched the Pirates that LaRoche wasn't gonna return to Pittsburgh. I don't even think both sides even attempted to negotiate a new deal. He clearly didn't like it here very much. Not only that, the Pirates were not going to even attempt to resign the guy who had been a disappointment since he arrived. I think he got ripped on too much while he was here, but he wasn't gonna return. They traded half a season of an average first baseman for something. Not a loss.

Ah, no. He may be marginally better offensively, but he's no where near Wilson on defense. This trade is a split. Garbage in, garbage out. No one won this trade. Clement can't hit major league pitching, and cedeno is a below average SS. Much like wilson.

Cedeno has a better UZR, UZR/150, fielding % and basically every other fielding stat to Wilson. Other than that good point about their fielding abilities. Not to mention Cedeno is younger and would actually stay with the Pirates after last season. Cedeno > Wilson. Clement + whatever > a pitcher who would never pitch for the Pirates again. No way that's a loss.

None of the pirates prospects they brought in through these trades are flying through the minors. THAT's the WhOLE POINT OF MY FUCKING POST!!! This clown is no different. He's pure garbage, and was demoted shortly after his arrival to bradenton, where he's 3-2 with a 8.42 era.

Dude a prospect getting demoted to AA from AAA after a few starts is nothing. It means he wasn't ready yet. Christ. He's 21 years old. AA/AAA is passing through the minors fine. The only players that fly through the minors are top prospects, and the Pirates had no one worth a top prospect sans maybe Jason Bay (they could've got 1 top prospect instead of a bunch of others).


Big deal, he has 6 wins and seven losses with a 3.85 era in the majors. That's better than any of the pitching suspects the bucs brought in through these recent trades. They gave up on him too early.

Big deal. He has a 1.46 whip in the majors. He had plenty of time to prove he could be successful with the Pirates. He wasn't. He's a bottom of the rotation guy. Certainly expendable. Yeah, his stats went up when he left Pittsburgh. That seems to be a theme. Take Duke and put him on a different club and he'd probably put up better numbers too. Oh and Josh Harrison is having a very nice season in the minors.

I agree with your early assessment about low risk/high reward. But, spending 4.0 million dollars on an injured 2B isn't low risk. He became their highest paid postion player upon his arrival. He was not fully recovered from his surgery, and is now playing AAA baseball. That's not low risk. That's called poor evaluation and mis-management. You can't spin it any other way.

What was the risk in giving Iwamura $4 million. The Pirates were below their cap. They had money to spend. In fact they had money they needed to spend on a Major League player. Getting a injured guy that has potential to return good form is certainly a risk worth taking. Yeah, it didn't work. But they didn't give anything up for him. Jesse Chavez is nothing. A AAA shortstop is just as valuable as an average relief pitcher. The Pirates have shown they can work with those.

Sure they are. some of these trades are close to being three years old, now. where is the return??? Where are the prospects???? Or should I say, suspects. They aren't here. And the one's that are here aren't showing anything of much promise. The only trade I made light of that pittsburgh won is the Nady/Marte trade to NY. Tabata and Olhendorf were wins for pittsburgh. The rest are losses bordering on marginal to epic losses.

I just disagree flat out. Follow the Pirates' organization, and you'd know where the prospects are. This isn't football. Guys don't make impacts right away. Especially when a lot of the guys were added for organizational depth.



You can think whatever you want to about my post. Lying to yourself that the pirates somehow won half of these trades is pretty silly, though. At this point, they are lucky to have won 20% of them. It has the potential to go up if some of these prospects end up panning out. But, they have just as much potential to fail at this point, as they do to succeed.[/QUOTE]

Not lying to myself about anything. I have no need to. Saying they lost the McLouth, Wilson, LaRoche trades is "silly."

Yeah. They have potential to succeed or fail. They're PROSPECTS.

The only trade they flat out loss that hurt was Bay. Even that wasn't epic. That's not saying they won the other trades either. They certainly didn't lose most of the ones you're complaining about.

And speaking of Huntington's ability to scout Major/Minor League talent. Funny how we have yet to mention Garrett Jones and Evan Meek.

Oh one more thing about the Bay trade. Morris was the prize of the deal. He had a shoulder injury his first season with the Bucs. That's not really a problem with poor talent evaluation. Young pitchers developing shoulder issues is the risk of trading for young pitchers. Not a fault of a GM. It happens. He has rebounded this year and has an ERA under 3. Hopefully he can keep developing.