Jack Meet Ownership...The Nelson Cruz Story

[NWinAZ]

Seattle ownership decreed at start of winter: No Cruz or any PED guys

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October 12, 2014 3:43 pm MT


Mariners ownership decreed early last winter that the team would not be signing slugger Nelson Cruz or and other free agent with a PED connection, so from the start they never had a realistic chance to sign Cruz.
The Tacoma New-Tribune reported recently that the Mariners "backed away" from an agreement between Mariners baseball people and Cruz on a deal for one year and an option that was to pay Cruz about $7.5 million in 2014 and include an option for about $9 million for 2015, and there definitely appeared to be talks between the Mariners and Cruz. It's possible, too, there may well have been some sort of contingent deal. However, people familiar with the situation say ownership's position could not have been a surprise to the Mariners' baseball people as they were told from the start there would be no Cruz coming.
It is, of course, quite possible Seattle's baseball people were holding out hope they could convince ownership such a deal for Cruz would be worthwhile, as it's possible ownership's unwillingness to do a deal with Cruz might have been more about concerns he'd perform to his usual level in the year after his PED suspension more than any moral objection.
Robinson Cano, the Mariners' big free-agent signing this past winter, pushed hard for the team to sign Cruz, and maybe that provided extra impetus for Mariners baseball people to keep considering the issue even after the decree. In any case, as the News-Tribune reported, ownership never softened its stance.
The Cano signing for $240 million paid off big for the Mariners, but Cruz, who led the American League in home runs, turned out to be a major bargain for the Orioles, who wound up winning the AL East. Seattle lost out on a wild-card playoff spot by one game.
Mariners GM Jack Zduriencik declined comment on the episode.

 

[PolarVortex]

I guess this means that we don't have to speculate on the possibility of Melky Cabrera playing the outfield for us next year.

 

[wazzu31]

The whole Cruz thing confuses me in a way and shows a huge disconnect with the front office and the sports world. I agree with ownership in the sense that if I were in their shoes there is zero chance that I would have given a guy coming off a PED suspension 7.5 million, I would have been wrong, but I wouldn't have. I would've offered a similar, but a little higher, deal than they gave to Corey Hart.

But if Cano really wanted him bad, I would've taken a guy who I just gave the farm too at least a second chance not write it off as a definite no. It seems illogical that you pay that much guaranteed money to a guy and just say no to any request he asks. Junior wanted a LF next to him, the M's tried every scenario possible to get a decent MLB quality LF.

But finally, what is the point of having a GM if the ownership group can yes or no on personnel? If you want a successful franchise you cannot meddle in personnel decisions. In the Yankees big run, only 1 of their WS titles had anything to do with Steinbrenner and his wallet. All the others were based off the new direction of building from within that was allowed by George being out of the picture.

You should hire a GM, give him a budget and tell him to go field a team. The ownership/GM relationship with this organization is so troubling that it is near comical. The personnel decisions should be a GM/Manager relationship as the ownership should be just cutting the checks, if they do not like who/what the checks are going to then they need a new GM.

 

[PolarVortex]

It seems illogical that you pay that much guaranteed money to a guy and just say no to any request he asks. Junior wanted a LF next to him, the M's tried every scenario possible to get a decent MLB quality LF.

Not sure I completely believe that. One thing they never tried to do was sign a quality free agent left fielder, so I'm more tempted to believe that they also never tried to trade for a quality left fielder. The most significant effort I can remember is Mark Hittin Whiten and he was only here for 50 games.

But I get your point. Maybe they will listen to Cano next spring, when he will be looking around him and realizing once again that the team needs a couple more bats. Although I think he learned his lesson. I doubt if he speaks up again.

 

[Msfann]

Yes because a Mariner has NEVER done PEDS. Why didn't they block it when Morse came back to Seattle? Those teams from the 90's were about as pumped up as you can get, I wish I didn't believe that but I do. Griffey might not have done them but he might have been one of the only ones who didn't.

 

[gowazzu02]

Yes because a Mariner has NEVER done PEDS. Why didn't they block it when Morse came back to Seattle? Those teams from the 90's were about as pumped up as you can get, I wish I didn't believe that but I do. Griffey might not have done them but he might have been one of the only ones who didn't.

Yeah this. Boone was the poster child for the juice...... And as much as I love bone.......

 

[cezero]

If Cano cares about ever winning here, he'll again find subtle ways to use the media this offseason and during spring training.

I really hope he does it.

Basic triage is to address the most gaping/hemorrhaging wounds first. The outfield and dearth of RHB are it.

 

[Destroydacre]

Nelson Cruz's WAR of 4.7 blows away the production the M's got from every outfield position and the DH spot. With the M's only needing an improvement of 1 game to force a tie breaker and 2 games to make the wild card, you can say with zero doubt, this move (or lack thereof) cost the Mariners a playoff spot.

 

[PolarVortex]

Yeah this. Boone was the poster child for the juice...... And as much as I love bone.......

Yeah, Edgar was roiding too, big time. You don't just puit up a season like he did in 2001, at age 37, playing half your games in Safeco Field, unless you are getting a little help. From age 37 to age 40, his annual OPS were 1.006, .966, .888, .895. Loved the guy, but there is little doubt that he was juiced up.

In comparison, last year Cano, at age 32, put up an .836.

 

[PolarVortex]

Nelson Cruz's WAR of 4.7 blows away the production the M's got from every outfield position and the DH spot. With the M's only needing an improvement of 1 game to force a tie breaker and 2 games to make the wild card, you can say with zero doubt, this move (or lack thereof) cost the Mariners a playoff spot.

Not to defend the front office, but if they had known at the time how close this team was, they may have approached the Cruz signing a little differrently ot at least been open to idea of bringing in a productrive, veteran bat. Maybe I'm giving them too much credit.

 

[wazzu31]

Not sure I completely believe that. One thing they never tried to do was sign a quality free agent left fielder, so I'm more tempted to believe that they also never tried to trade for a quality left fielder. The most significant effort I can remember is Mark Hittin Whiten and he was only here for 50 games.

But I get your point. Maybe they will listen to Cano next spring, when he will be looking around him and realizing once again that the team needs a couple more bats. Although I think he learned his lesson. I doubt if he speaks up again.

I'm not saying they were successful at any of their attempts but at least IMO they tried listening to their star. Butch Huskey wasn't bad. Griffey's two biggest gripes were getting a LF and some bullpen help since the team's bullpen sucked. Woody didn't succeed but at least he tried.

The ownership/gm relationship is still puzzling. If they told him prior to any negotiations that no PED guys were to be signed then why was Jack negotiating with Cruz to begin with?

 

[wazzu31]

Yeah, Edgar was roiding too, big time. You don't just puit up a season like he did in 2001, at age 37, playing half your games in Safeco Field, unless you are getting a little help. From age 37 to age 40, his annual OPS were 1.006, .966, .888, .895. Loved the guy, but there is little doubt that he was juiced up.

In comparison, last year Cano, at age 32, put up an .836.

But every known sign of roids says Edgar did not use roids. His OPS numbers aren't the ones you would want to use to prove it, had he all of a sudden gone on to put up a record amount of homeruns and doubles then yes but with age his game relied on hand eye coordination which steroids does not help. Edgar got better with age simply because he only dedicated himself to hitting, didn't have to worry about fielding, conditioning and most directly related to steroids recovery. His body progressed with age as most human beings do. He wasn't Palmerio where he still had the body that he did when he was in his mid 20's, he didn't bulk up like Bonds, Brady Anderson, Boone or even David Segui. He didn't some gain an absurd about of stamina like most of the pitchers that got caught.

I knew a ton of guys that used steroids in organization and he didn't show one symptom that has ever made me question him. I could be incredibly naive but he was never a name even mentioned by players.

 

[PolarVortex]

But every known sign of roids says Edgar did not use roids. His OPS numbers aren't the ones you would want to use to prove it, had he all of a sudden gone on to put up a record amount of homeruns and doubles then yes but with age his game relied on hand eye coordination which steroids does not help. Edgar got better with age simply because he only dedicated himself to hitting, didn't have to worry about fielding, conditioning and most directly related to steroids recovery. His body progressed with age as most human beings do. He wasn't Palmerio where he still had the body that he did when he was in his mid 20's, he didn't bulk up like Bonds, Brady Anderson, Boone or even David Segui. He didn't some gain an absurd about of stamina like most of the pitchers that got caught.

I knew a ton of guys that used steroids in organization and he didn't show one symptom that has ever made me question him. I could be incredibly naive but he was never a name even mentioned by players.

It's a good story. But, I don't buy it. I don't need to believe that Edgar was clean in order to appreciate what he did.

 

[NWinAZ]

So does this mean Choi and Montero will be shipped out this off season for past PED issues?

 

[dude82]

It's a good story. But, I don't buy it. I don't need to believe that Edgar was clean in order to appreciate what he did.

Edgar was one of the best hitters in the game for almost his entire career. Guys like that tend to be consistently good hitters for longer than the average hitter and they also tend to adapt well to whichever park they're asked to hit in. It shouldn't be a surprise, then, that Edgar was still putting up good numbers into his late 30's despite the change in home parks. Safeco Field might be a pitcher's park and Mariners lineups in recent years might make you think that anyone capable of hitting well there has to be or has to have been on something, but that doesn't mean that Edgar was. He was just a great hitter.

Besides... given the number of players, including big name players, that came out of that era with tarnished records and reputations for having been proven to be on PEDs, admitted to being on PEDs, had unusual changes in their physique or a sudden spike in their stats to make people suspect that they were on PEDs, you would think that if Edgar had been on anything, it would have come out by now. It's not like journalists and baseball people back then (or since) were shy about going after the best players in the game when they suspected PED use, so if Edgar was on something, why didn't those journalists and baseball people go after him like they did some of the other great hitters of that era? The only people who even speculate that he was on something are people who assume that everyone who played during that era was on something. I'm sorry, but that's not good enough for me to believe that he actually was, and neither is the fact that he continued to hit well in his late 30's in a new home park.

 

[PolarVortex]

Edgar was one of the best hitters in the game for almost his entire career. Guys like that tend to be consistently good hitters for longer than the average hitter and they also tend to adapt well to whichever park they're asked to hit in. It shouldn't be a surprise, then, that Edgar was still putting up good numbers into his late 30's despite the change in home parks. Safeco Field might be a pitcher's park and Mariners lineups in recent years might make you think that anyone capable of hitting well there has to be or has to have been on something, but that doesn't mean that Edgar was. He was just a great hitter.

Besides... given the number of players, including big name players, that came out of that era with tarnished records and reputations for having been proven to be on PEDs, admitted to being on PEDs, had unusual changes in their physique or a sudden spike in their stats to make people suspect that they were on PEDs, you would think that if Edgar had been on anything, it would have come out by now. It's not like journalists and baseball people back then (or since) were shy about going after the best players in the game when they suspected PED use, so if Edgar was on something, why didn't those journalists and baseball people go after him like they did some of the other great hitters of that era? The only people who even speculate that he was on something are people who assume that everyone who played during that era was on something. I'm sorry, but that's not good enough for me to believe that he actually was, and neither is the fact that he continued to hit well in his late 30's in a new home park.

I don't know what stats you are looking at but when I look at Edgar's stats, this is what I see: In his first eigght years in the majors, he only had one season that was even remotely close to the offenseive output he had in his next 8 years. At the age off 32, when career decline begins for most players, Edgar suddenly went on a tear. That season was 1995, which was also the same season that the ridiculous power hitters in MLB emerged.

And if you think his physique didn not change over the years then you weren't paying attention. In tthe early 90s he was a scrawny line ddrive hitter who actually had some speed and stole 18 bases one year. By 1995 he was a fucking brickhouse.

But, hey, if you want to believe he was clean, then God bless you. Good for you. I'll tell you the same tthing I told Wazzu: I don't need to believe that he was clean in order to appreciate what he accomplished. 70% of the players, at minimum, were roiding back then. This 'our sports heros were clean but yours weren't' mentality is kind of ridiculous.

 

[NWinAZ]

I played basketball in junior college at 170 and by 30 was 225. Never touched the juice in my life. Bodies change at that point. And because of his eye condition, he probably worked twice as hard on his hitting as any other player which could explain whatever increase he may have had. Not trying to convince you other wise, but I don't see it. Now if you want to talk Boone, then.....

 

[wazzu31]

I don't know what stats you are looking at but when I look at Edgar's stats, this is what I see: In his first eigght years in the majors, he only had one season that was even remotely close to the offenseive output he had in his next 8 years. At the age off 32, when career decline begins for most players, Edgar suddenly went on a tear. That season was 1995, which was also the same season that the ridiculous power hitters in MLB emerged.

And if you think his physique didn not change over the years then you weren't paying attention. In tthe early 90s he was a scrawny line ddrive hitter who actually had some speed and stole 18 bases one year. By 1995 he was a fucking brickhouse.

But, hey, if you want to believe he was clean, then God bless you. Good for you. I'll tell you the same tthing I told Wazzu: I don't need to believe that he was clean in order to appreciate what he accomplished. 70% of the players, at minimum, were roiding back then. This 'our sports heros were clean but yours weren't' mentality is kind of ridiculous.

You're right about the early part of his career, but after his latest injury that ended his position days his body didn't bulk up, he added body fat not muscle. Edgar was a unique player in that he only depended on his hand eye coordination, didn't generate much power from his lower half at all and as I stated steroids PED's do nothing for your hand eye coordination. Another thing also to consider is there was a witch hunt on Edgar since he became a full time DH because of his numbers. Had there been any evidence people would have been all over it trying to discredit him and not have to deal with the DH is a real position or the debate on the hall of fame.

But we can all disagree on it.

 

[wazzu31]

I played basketball in junior college at 170 and by 30 was 225. Never touched the juice in my life. Bodies change at that point. And because of his eye condition, he probably worked twice as hard on his hitting as any other player which could explain whatever increase he may have had. Not trying to convince you other wise, but I don't see it. Now if you want to talk Boone, then.....

Well Boone was obvious, there were quite a few guys on the 2000-2003 roster that were taking some form of PED but most of those guys were either coming back from an injury or trying for a new contract. With my time with the Rainiers organization I had several discussions on the topic and of all the guys that certain guys would talk about none ever mentioned Edgar and all of the signs they talked about didn't fit Edgar or Junior.

 

[NWinAZ]

Agreed.