Game Thread: Goat fish vs captain ahab

[Cbrower91]

30th in pp and 25th in defense. Some of that is coaching. Yet to see a pp goal at home. Why did Dougie extend Dillon? He is crap. Since he made the trade, he had to validate it this way I guess. Remember that first game against the Kings? It was like wow, 60 minutes of great effort and hockey...and now woeful. Back to their lazy ways and underachievement. And damn, this team is full of young underachievers. A bunch of softies: Nieto, Hertl, Tierney, Wingels, ... do something.

Neito has been shit and should be dealt, Hertl has been good, Tierny needs more AHL time and Wingels is having bad year. Dillion had shown he could a 4th dman but he's regressed no getting around it

 

[sjrules99]

your kind of talking out both sides of your mouth in regards to Jones, either the defense sucks which we agree the bottom two are disastourus, a goalie can only cover that up for so long. With exception to last night I've only seen Jones give up one other bad goal and that was against the caps when he got caught in the down position not hugging the post and had one banked in off his back. It's not Jones he's the future in net he needs help like any other good goalie lundquist, Rinne, and quick have outstanding defenses in front of them. I'd say Crawford but he sucks and has a great team in front of him, there's other factors besides numbers

I like jones, and I think he is a bona fide #1. However, he is a UFA in just 2 years after this one. What that means is if the sharks are in a rebuild and bomb this year, they will have, in essense, lost a lottery pick for good (albeit not spectacular yet) goalie for two years. That's hardly a great move. If they were going to compete for the cup this year, then it makes sense and the value of the 1st is much lower in the late teens or 20's, than in the top 10. it was a big gamble is all I was saying trading a potential lottery pick (unlike a deadline deal where the pick # is pretty much known in a small range) for a career back up in a year after missing the PO's with lots of youth and aging leaders. It could have gone great or it could go terribly.

Worst case scenario, the sharks tank but keep the old guns, and jones plays out his couple years in teal and goes UFA at age 28. The sharks walk away having lost a lottery pick, received nothing for the big two, and have a boatload of realtively useless youth. Its vastly different from the best case scenario, but right now, the former appears much closer to reality.

Regarding jones, dont get me wrong. I like him. He is a good. I think he is a starter. If things were going according to plan with the rest of the roster, the deal for him would be awesome. The tanking of the team is not on him, but it makes his deal far less appetizing and far more painful. That's all I meant...

 

[sjrules99]

Neito has been shit and should be dealt, Hertl has been good, Tierny needs more AHL time and Wingels is having bad year. Dillion had shown he could a 4th dman but he's regressed no getting around it

Dillon was absolute shit last year, and is absolute shit this year. That was the dumbest signing of doug wilson's entire tenure (including burish, brown, etc). Dillon, to me, is barely NHL material. He was not NHL material last year, he's a penalty machine, and provides nothing much at either end.

Hertl is misplaced at C between patty and ward. he is a good place to succeed, but I think he is better at wing.

Wingels is indeed just having an off year. he is better than this. i think it's largely coaching and confidence (which are intertwined). Hopefully he wakes up, but it's pretty impressively bad.

Tierney is fine. AHL time might have helped (I read the piece too), but i think he is misused. I would actually love to see him take Hertl's spot on patty's line and have hertl drop back to wingels and nieto as it was when the year started. I liked the chemistry of that line and Id like to see it returned. Tierney will come around, but could use some good linemates to help. This is a deboer coaching fuck up issue, and the lack of chemistry and performance from the kids is largely on the coach's shoulders as its his job to get the most out of the troops.

nieto is torrey mitchell v. 2.0. Fast but not gunna be more that 10-15 goals/yr, and a borderline 3rd liner. I think that's become pretty obvious.

If the sharks wanna compete this year, they need to get another defenseman who can score and play the PP, find line combos that maximize output of the guys, and coach the players to a level of consistency and effort that just isnt there, particularly at the starts. Much actually points at Deboer since Mclellan did more with less last year. Basically Tadd had the same team except:

hannan--> martin (vast upgrade)
Sheppard --> ward (vast upgrade)
Niemi--> jones (upgrade? at least doesnt seem downgrade)
Older, develpped youth as one could expect that this year's wingels/nieto/hertl/tierney would be better than last.
Add in Donskoi who has been a pleasant surprise and the roster is far better this year than last.

Only jumbo and patty are a year older. other than that mclellan had a much worse team and did far better, especially in the coachables, than deboer. I am beginning to think deboer with his failing record (one year exception) was a very bad choice.

 

[Likewall32]

Rules - I love your detailed posts, cause you always do your resaearch, but I just have one point to make , well 2...
The 1st is you flip your opinions more than I flip my underware , and im giving you delay points on that cause sometimes when im working 12s I dont shower or change them lol
but 2:

Key point: SJ is 7-8.... Chicago is 8-7.... both are 41GF 41GA & 40GF 40GA... One won the stanley cup last year, one didnt make the playoffs... We werent expected to do anything this year. None of us expected it - we are right where we al thought we would be - all of our offseason pickus hve been GREAT. Ward - WOW, Jones - fucking awesome, he may be losing games buts he's getting beat where he should be getting bet - theres only been like 4, maybe 5 shit goals hes allowed all year -- hes leaps and bounds above Niemi (who is thriving in Dallas which I dont like to admit) BUT Jones is playing great and isnt giving up those backbreaker, deflating, spurt goals Niemi is know for, and Martin is doing what Martin does -- hes staying home to let Burns wreck shop...

now my question is, why should is every Sj numbnut (im calling you that in the friendliest of terms - cause I do like you) panicking, when the defending Cup champs arent - yet hve the same record as us??

Yes out PP sucks, it sucks worse than a japan bukkake video...
Yes we have MAJOR regression from Tiereny, and Nieto
Nieto has been regressing since day one
Yes our Defense is fucking terrible
Yes we are a curse to developing forward talent

BUT when all is said and done - we are a 500 club, that is fully capable if killing teams. We had a healthy roster for 4 games... We are where we should be...

Do you see Chicago wanting to blow up the roster and trade Hossa Keith or Seabrook? no... Is Terrivianen shitting the bed like our talent does -- yes - in Chi hes a God, in Coach Q's eyes he blows, do they panic - no... and they have a lot more to lose then us... They are only missing 1 player in Keith, who is their No 1 Dman, but their D is much stronger than ours and without Kieth, their D is still better than ours - their forwrd lineup to -- yet we have the same record...

Quit freaking out... I am actually enjoying the living fuck out of this season, cause its where we SHOULD be, and its an evaluating season to see what needs to happen... Yes I want Marleau gone, but do we need him gone now? nah/ Do we need to panic? No way... Melker is up and still wont be in full swing for another 2-3 weeks, by then Logan might be back, then Hertl can drop to 3rd where he should be, and we will go from their... If any move will be made that I think should happen it would be Marleau for for D-man...

PS I cant believe I lovd the Dillon for Demers trade when it happened... Dillion was a beast his rookie year...

 

[sjrules99]

Rules - I love your detailed posts, cause you always do your resaearch, but I just have one point to make , well 2...
The 1st is you flip your opinions more than I flip my underware , and im giving you delay points on that cause sometimes when im working 12s I dont shower or change them lol
but 2:

Key point: SJ is 7-8.... Chicago is 8-7.... both are 41GF 41GA & 40GF 40GA... One won the stanley cup last year, one didnt make the playoffs... We werent expected to do anything this year. None of us expected it - we are right where we al thought we would be - all of our offseason pickus hve been GREAT. Ward - WOW, Jones - fucking awesome, he may be losing games buts he's getting beat where he should be getting bet - theres only been like 4, maybe 5 shit goals hes allowed all year -- hes leaps and bounds above Niemi (who is thriving in Dallas which I dont like to admit) BUT Jones is playing great and isnt giving up those backbreaker, deflating, spurt goals Niemi is know for, and Martin is doing what Martin does -- hes staying home to let Burns wreck shop...

now my question is, why should is every Sj numbnut (im calling you that in the friendliest of terms - cause I do like you) panicking, when the defending Cup champs arent - yet hve the same record as us??

Yes out PP sucks, it sucks worse than a japan bukkake video...
Yes we have MAJOR regression from Tiereny, and Nieto
Nieto has been regressing since day one
Yes our Defense is fucking terrible
Yes we are a curse to developing forward talent

BUT when all is said and done - we are a 500 club, that is fully capable if killing teams. We had a healthy roster for 4 games... We are where we should be...

Do you see Chicago wanting to blow up the roster and trade Hossa Keith or Seabrook? no... Is Terrivianen shitting the bed like our talent does -- yes - in Chi hes a God, in Coach Q's eyes he blows, do they panic - no... and they have a lot more to lose then us... They are only missing 1 player in Keith, who is their No 1 Dman, but their D is much stronger than ours and without Kieth, their D is still better than ours - their forwrd lineup to -- yet we have the same record...

Quit freaking out... I am actually enjoying the living fuck out of this season, cause its where we SHOULD be, and its an evaluating season to see what needs to happen... Yes I want Marleau gone, but do we need him gone now? nah/ Do we need to panic? No way... Melker is up and still wont be in full swing for another 2-3 weeks, by then Logan might be back, then Hertl can drop to 3rd where he should be, and we will go from their... If any move will be made that I think should happen it would be Marleau for for D-man...

PS I cant believe I lovd the Dillon for Demers trade when it happened... Dillion was a beast his rookie year...

You may well be right. maybe when cooch is back and melker is in 'full swing', they will play like they did to start the year. i sure hope so. However, I just dont see and the 3 good games at the start of the year is a much smaller sample than the 12 games since that have seen very poor inconsistent play. There is a real reason to expect the sharks to suck and the hawks not to. they are:

1. The hawks are largely struggling because they miss the best defenseman in the entire league in keith (and no, Im not exaggerating, I think he's #1). Thats 26-30 mins/night, or a player who plays close to half of every game at the highest level there is. it's like it Curry went down for the dubs. They would still win many game,s but it would really hurt. Cooch is not keith. he's good, but not even close. When keith comes back not too long from now, the hawks will be back.

2. the hawks have proven players. They are winners. Their best players have proven themselves to be winners. they are not even comparable.

3. Coach Q is a solid veteran coach with a strong track record. Deboer has missed the playoffs every year but one in his coaching career and has a very poor record. As such, Coach Q likely knows better how to handle advesity than deboer.

4. The hawks know how to turn it up when it matters. If they start truly scuffling, they will turn it around quickly, I believe. the sharks have a long history of folding so its just not comparable.

5. The hawks have a good team. The D is deeper. Their O is better. The goaltending is iffy, but they have a much better roster, and a good company culture. They work hard. They get along. They like it there. The sharks are a cultural mess as well.

its just not comparable. the acquisitions have been awesome, I agree with you. its hard to argue with the play or martin or ward, or even jones. I said so. just that trading the 1st rounder for jones was very risky, and if the sharks tank, as it looks like they very well might, then in hindsight, I sure wouldnt trade a lottery pick for 3 years of martin jones. This is a big big year, and if they turn it around, alot of things look different. keeping the big wo would make sense. The 1st rounder wouldnt be a lottery pick. the young kids would be developing in a winning, not losing, culture. BUT, if it continues as is, the kids will know only losing, the big two will be gone, but the lottery pick will be gone, and the future will be bleak for some time. Its a big time crossroads, and theres some reason for optimism, but alot for pessimism.

p.s.: I know I have flipped. I admitted so. I was likely the most optimistic person on the baords early on. I loved the roster. Loved the acquisitions. Loved the O depth, and felt OK with the D. I thought they wouldnt just make the PO's but compete to win it all. However, I have seen that the issues of years past are so glaringly still there, and that nothing has truly fundamentally changed. As such, my optimism has evaporated, and I see little reason to expect that they will be a real contender any time soon.

 

[Cmon_WTF]

I've been most impressed with Hertl this year. His play has been outstanding and he is showing that he will be a good 2nd line center in the NHL in the very near future but for right now his spot should be on the 3rd line. With Karlsson and Goldobin both on the roster combined with the bottom six scoring woes he will probably be back at the 3rd line center spot soon. I wouldn't be surprised to see them spot Goldy next to Marleau and Ward to drop Hertl back down before this road trip is over.

 

[Cmon_WTF]

To add, I'm pretty much in 100% agreement with Likewall. It's way to early to panic. I just think some are over reacting to where the team is now because of how good they started the first three games and the higher expectations that came with the FA additions. We will get a much better idea of how good this team is when Couture is back and at 100%.

 

[sjrules99]

To add, I'm pretty much in 100% agreement with Likewall. It's way to early to panic. I just think some are over reacting to where the team is now because of how good they started the first three games and the higher expectations that came with the FA additions. We will get a much better idea of how good this team is when Couture is back and at 100%.

To expect no injuries is a fools errand. Every team suffers injuries and when you have as many 30+ year olds as the sharks (burns, pavs, jumbo, patty, ward, martin, Torres, etc) injuries will happen. Cooch hurts, but having one top 6 forward or top 4 dman out is pretty standard. A team should be able to overcome such adversity and its different from losing the best Dman in the world.

Too early to panic? Perhaps. Will the kids who are basically all underachieving pick it up and play more to expectations? Maybe. Are they toast? no. and there is no urgency to dealing patty. All of this is true. But, personally, I dont expect a massive turnaround when cooch comes back as I expect he wont be the only injury all season. I personally don't expect it to be this bad all year where they lose 70% of the time, but I dont expect them to revert to being a contender either. So, whether they trade the big two and co now or in 2-3 months isnt that crucial as long as they get the big return they need.

p.s.: On a crazy counternote, matt duchene could look good in teal. Not sure the asking price but at 6M for a 24 year old with his record, it could be a great steal, and would be a great player to add to pavs and cooch for the future rebuild post patty/jumbo. They will easily have the cap space for him once the big two (or one) are gone, and I like the way he plays. Hed make a very nice addition, as long as the asking price wasnt too high. That's always the big key...

 

[Cbrower91]

To expect no injuries is a fools errand. Every team suffers injuries and when you have as many 30+ year olds as the sharks (burns, pavs, jumbo, patty, ward, martin, Torres, etc) injuries will happen. Cooch hurts, but having one top 6 forward or top 4 dman out is pretty standard. A team should be able to overcome such adversity and its different from losing the best Dman in the world.

Too early to panic? Perhaps. Will the kids who are basically all underachieving pick it up and play more to expectations? Maybe. Are they toast? no. and there is no urgency to dealing patty. All of this is true. But, personally, I dont expect a massive turnaround when cooch comes back as I expect he wont be the only injury all season. I personally don't expect it to be this bad all year where they lose 70% of the time, but I dont expect them to revert to being a contender either. So, whether they trade the big two and co now or in 2-3 months isnt that crucial as long as they get the big return they need.

p.s.: On a crazy counternote, matt duchene could look good in teal. Not sure the asking price but at 6M for a 24 year old with his record, it could be a great steal, and would be a great player to add to pavs and cooch for the future rebuild post patty/jumbo. They will easily have the cap space for him once the big two (or one) are gone, and I like the way he plays. Hed make a very nice addition, as long as the asking price wasnt too high. That's always the big key...

I think Duschene got ruined by that contract and it was brought up when he signed it, however Marleau for Duschene would be nice, maybe weasel Johnson out of there for mueller and braun

 

[MrChangoT97]

It's never too early to panic!