Spring Training 2012

[MarcoPolo]

I'd rather see Hector playing every day (and learning) rather than sitting on the bench in SF 6 days of the week. BUT if the team is planning on having Posey sitting out every other game the first couple of weeks of the season, why not? But I also fear that Sanchez would put up a line similar to the one he had in Fresno last year :
.261 /.315/.340 /.655.

Pretty "whiteside-ish".

 

[filosofy29]

I'd rather see Hector playing every day (and learning) rather than sitting on the bench in SF 6 days of the week. BUT if the team is planning on having Posey sitting out every other game the first couple of weeks of the season, why not? But I also fear that Sanchez would put up a line similar to the one he had in Fresno last year :
.261 /.315/.340 /.655.

Pretty "whiteside-ish".

I think he'd (Chez3) see the playing field at least twice a week as a starter up here. Plus, Posey is very in-tune with the pitching staff, who better to learn from than the man himself?

Like gp mentioned, with the strong pipeline of young catchers in the system, Sanchez doesn't have to reach peak development to be considered a success (in my humble opinion). He just has to be a noticeable improvement over Stewside.

 

[the_broom]

Whitey vs. Prince

Repped for the sheer awesomeness!

 

[Stokes1931]

Totally awesome!

Pablo Sandoval's Bubblegum Chewing Bobblehead | ThePostGame

 

[calsnowskier]

Totally awesome!

Pablo Sandoval's Bubblegum Chewing Bobblehead | ThePostGame

Planking has hit the bobblehead trend now?

:

 

[gp956]

I'd rather see Hector playing every day (and learning) rather than sitting on the bench in SF 6 days of the week. BUT if the team is planning on having Posey sitting out every other game the first couple of weeks of the season, why not? But I also fear that Sanchez would put up a line similar to the one he had in Fresno last year :
.261 /.315/.340 /.655.

Pretty "whiteside-ish".

160 AB? With a sample size that small, I'd say his Fresno line is close to meaningless.

 

[gp956]

Totally awesome!

Pablo Sandoval's Bubblegum Chewing Bobblehead | ThePostGame

Wow! That's the best bobblehead I've seen.

 

[MarcoPolo]

160 AB? With a sample size that small, I'd say his Fresno line is close to meaningless.

His spring stats are an even smaller sample size (and he's hitting against a lot of minor league pitching).

He's young, very young, and he hasn't hit well above A-ball. There's no problem with him having another short stint in the majors if he's going to play several days a week, but I'd rather look towards the future and have him learn in the minors the stuff that he needs to be a success in the majors. AA is generally the real "make it or break it" level in the minors, and he skipped that level. It's not surprising that he didn't hit well going from San Jose to Fresno - the pitching is a heck of a lot better in AAA. He also needs to improve his defense, and Steve Decker is just the guy to make sure he does learn it. There aren't that many guys that rocket from 'A'-ball to AAA and then the majors and are a success, and those that do so are generally highly touted top-10 draft picks who were expected to have that success. We've been spoiled by Timmy and Buster, who did exactly that (but they were expected to basically do that when they were drafted). And they both killed in AAA, for the short time that they were there, unlike Hector.

I'm not sure that he'll hit well in the majors, as he hasn't seen much in the way of good breaking pitches (or was totally fooled by the ones he saw in Fresno last year). Again, I'm thinking more about his future career than the extra 5 hits he might get over Stewart in the 3 weeks he'll be in the majors. I certainly don't want to see him in the majors all year, if it means he won't improve defensively. I'd rather that he learn how to hit decent pitching when he is NOT racking up major league service time, and getting closer to arbitration and FA. I'd rather that he do that learning in the minors, so that he'll be a better player in the future and be a good player able to stay with the Giants longer. On other boards, this is when everybody would expect me to refer to Matt Williams. so I will . He was promoted way too early and his first 3 (partial) seasons in the majors were where he learned about curveballs and change-ups. His output those 3 years was far, far below what he put up the rest of his career, barely hitting .200 (and his first season, not even that). It's a shame he didn't learn that in the minors and not waste all that service time.

My last reason is something that comes up pretty much every year with Giants' prospects : the "jimmy jack" aspect. You hear the complaints about a guy getting called up, being sent down, called up again (and hardly playing), etc. That is exactly what I'd like to avoid with this kid; it could mess up his confidence. He needs to concentrate on improving, and the fastest and best way for that is to play every day. And I'd rather have a better player for late 2012 or 2013 instead of a mediocre one now.

I honestly don't think that he'll hit much better than the catcher he would replace, and for the little actual playing time that he would see he shouldn't make much of a difference, unless he actually hits like Buster. The backup catcher is not the guy that is going to make or break this team's chances to hit the post season. He's not even 2nd or 3rd or even 5th or 9th on things to worry about which could influence a post-season run.

 

[msgkings322]

His spring stats are an even smaller sample size (and he's hitting against a lot of minor league pitching).

He's young, very young, and he hasn't hit well above A-ball. There's no problem with him having another short stint in the majors if he's going to play several days a week, but I'd rather look towards the future and have him learn in the minors the stuff that he needs to be a success in the majors. AA is generally the real "make it or break it" level in the minors, and he skipped that level. It's not surprising that he didn't hit well going from San Jose to Fresno - the pitching is a heck of a lot better in AAA. He also needs to improve his defense, and Steve Decker is just the guy to make sure he does learn it. There aren't that many guys that rocket from 'A'-ball to AAA and then the majors and are a success, and those that do so are generally highly touted top-10 draft picks who were expected to have that success. We've been spoiled by Timmy and Buster, who did exactly that (but they were expected to basically do that when they were drafted). And they both killed in AAA, for the short time that they were there, unlike Hector.

I'm not sure that he'll hit well in the majors, as he hasn't seen much in the way of good breaking pitches (or was totally fooled by the ones he saw in Fresno last year). Again, I'm thinking more about his future career than the extra 5 hits he might get over Stewart in the 3 weeks he'll be in the majors. I certainly don't want to see him in the majors all year, if it means he won't improve defensively. I'd rather that he learn how to hit decent pitching when he is NOT racking up major league service time, and getting closer to arbitration and FA. I'd rather that he do that learning in the minors, so that he'll be a better player in the future and be a good player able to stay with the Giants longer. On other boards, this is when everybody would expect me to refer to Matt Williams. so I will . He was promoted way too early and his first 3 (partial) seasons in the majors were where he learned about curveballs and change-ups. His output those 3 years was far, far below what he put up the rest of his career, barely hitting .200 (and his first season, not even that). It's a shame he didn't learn that in the minors and not waste all that service time.

My last reason is something that comes up pretty much every year with Giants' prospects : the "jimmy jack" aspect. You hear the complaints about a guy getting called up, being sent down, called up again (and hardly playing), etc. That is exactly what I'd like to avoid with this kid; it could mess up his confidence. He needs to concentrate on improving, and the fastest and best way for that is to play every day. And I'd rather have a better player for late 2012 or 2013 instead of a mediocre one now.

I honestly don't think that he'll hit much better than the catcher he would replace, and for the little actual playing time that he would see he shouldn't make much of a difference, unless he actually hits like Buster. The backup catcher is not the guy that is going to make or break this team's chances to hit the post season. He's not even 2nd or 3rd or even 5th or 9th on things to worry about which could influence a post-season run.

ALL of this. Repped.

Kind of echoes my comments when we were discussing the backup C's, and KC maybe getting one, etc. Basically I figured backup catcher is about the least thing to worry about, so if the players love them some Whiteside, it doesn't matter that much if he sucks. That's what backup catchers do, they suck. Otherwise they wouldn't be backups. Other NL teams have shitty 8th and 9th hitters when their backups play too.

 

[MarcoPolo]

BTW, even though the "official broadcast schedule" here :
2012 Broadcast Schedule | SFGiants.com: Schedule

doesn't list it, the KNBR web site is saying that they will broadcast tonight's game against the Rockies. Pre-game starting at 6:55PM and game at 7:10. Tomorrow night's game will be televised on NBC-11 in the bay area and MLBNetwork (for some).

 

[tzill]

Whitey vs. Prince

Eli Whiteside is protected from up on high by the Prince of Backup Catchers. And you know what? Fine. The greatest backup catcher in Giants history is Eli Whiteside. World Series rings: more than everyone else. Fights started with Shane Victorino: more than everyone else.
--Grant at MCC

 

[gp956]

His spring stats are an even smaller sample size (and he's hitting against a lot of minor league pitching).

He's young, very young, and he hasn't hit well above A-ball. There's no problem with him having another short stint in the majors if he's going to play several days a week, but I'd rather look towards the future and have him learn in the minors the stuff that he needs to be a success in the majors. AA is generally the real "make it or break it" level in the minors, and he skipped that level. It's not surprising that he didn't hit well going from San Jose to Fresno - the pitching is a heck of a lot better in AAA. He also needs to improve his defense, and Steve Decker is just the guy to make sure he does learn it. There aren't that many guys that rocket from 'A'-ball to AAA and then the majors and are a success, and those that do so are generally highly touted top-10 draft picks who were expected to have that success. We've been spoiled by Timmy and Buster, who did exactly that (but they were expected to basically do that when they were drafted). And they both killed in AAA, for the short time that they were there, unlike Hector.

I'm not sure that he'll hit well in the majors, as he hasn't seen much in the way of good breaking pitches (or was totally fooled by the ones he saw in Fresno last year). Again, I'm thinking more about his future career than the extra 5 hits he might get over Stewart in the 3 weeks he'll be in the majors. I certainly don't want to see him in the majors all year, if it means he won't improve defensively. I'd rather that he learn how to hit decent pitching when he is NOT racking up major league service time, and getting closer to arbitration and FA. I'd rather that he do that learning in the minors, so that he'll be a better player in the future and be a good player able to stay with the Giants longer. On other boards, this is when everybody would expect me to refer to Matt Williams. so I will . He was promoted way too early and his first 3 (partial) seasons in the majors were where he learned about curveballs and change-ups. His output those 3 years was far, far below what he put up the rest of his career, barely hitting .200 (and his first season, not even that). It's a shame he didn't learn that in the minors and not waste all that service time.

My last reason is something that comes up pretty much every year with Giants' prospects : the "jimmy jack" aspect. You hear the complaints about a guy getting called up, being sent down, called up again (and hardly playing), etc. That is exactly what I'd like to avoid with this kid; it could mess up his confidence. He needs to concentrate on improving, and the fastest and best way for that is to play every day. And I'd rather have a better player for late 2012 or 2013 instead of a mediocre one now.

I honestly don't think that he'll hit much better than the catcher he would replace, and for the little actual playing time that he would see he shouldn't make much of a difference, unless he actually hits like Buster. The backup catcher is not the guy that is going to make or break this team's chances to hit the post season. He's not even 2nd or 3rd or even 5th or 9th on things to worry about which could influence a post-season run.

I appreciate the effort, but you should realize there is no need here to justify your opinions with tons of background information. We've all got a pretty good foundation in most aspects of this game, as well as the history of various Giants players/prospects.

I think the opinion expressed in your last paragraph is the most relevant argument you can make here. I would not be surprised if, into July, there isn't more than an expected half-win difference between Whiteside and Chez3, and more or less the same with Stew, once defense is factored in.

That said, when I'm kicking back and watching the game I don't want to see Stewey up with two outs and men on first and third, knowing the highest likely outcome is a 20 hopper to short and the pitcher leading off the next inning. That's just not something I'm looking forward to seeing. I'm not concerned merely with wins; I'm also concerned about the return on my time vis-a-vis entertainment value. With Chez, I expect the ball to jump off his bat and at least put some pressure on the D to make a play. And, of course, Chez3 easily has the most potential for upside surprise. High performance variance skewed to the upside and a slightly higher expected performance - why not go in on that?

As for the jimmy-jacking argument leading to a lower career arc, you'll have to convince me that that meme does not exist largely through confirmation bias.

 

[tzill]

His spring stats are an even smaller sample size (and he's hitting against a lot of minor league pitching).

He's young, very young, and he hasn't hit well above A-ball. There's no problem with him having another short stint in the majors if he's going to play several days a week, but I'd rather look towards the future and have him learn in the minors the stuff that he needs to be a success in the majors. AA is generally the real "make it or break it" level in the minors, and he skipped that level. It's not surprising that he didn't hit well going from San Jose to Fresno - the pitching is a heck of a lot better in AAA. He also needs to improve his defense, and Steve Decker is just the guy to make sure he does learn it. There aren't that many guys that rocket from 'A'-ball to AAA and then the majors and are a success, and those that do so are generally highly touted top-10 draft picks who were expected to have that success. We've been spoiled by Timmy and Buster, who did exactly that (but they were expected to basically do that when they were drafted). And they both killed in AAA, for the short time that they were there, unlike Hector.

I'm not sure that he'll hit well in the majors, as he hasn't seen much in the way of good breaking pitches (or was totally fooled by the ones he saw in Fresno last year). Again, I'm thinking more about his future career than the extra 5 hits he might get over Stewart in the 3 weeks he'll be in the majors. I certainly don't want to see him in the majors all year, if it means he won't improve defensively. I'd rather that he learn how to hit decent pitching when he is NOT racking up major league service time, and getting closer to arbitration and FA. I'd rather that he do that learning in the minors, so that he'll be a better player in the future and be a good player able to stay with the Giants longer. On other boards, this is when everybody would expect me to refer to Matt Williams. so I will . He was promoted way too early and his first 3 (partial) seasons in the majors were where he learned about curveballs and change-ups. His output those 3 years was far, far below what he put up the rest of his career, barely hitting .200 (and his first season, not even that). It's a shame he didn't learn that in the minors and not waste all that service time.

My last reason is something that comes up pretty much every year with Giants' prospects : the "jimmy jack" aspect. You hear the complaints about a guy getting called up, being sent down, called up again (and hardly playing), etc. That is exactly what I'd like to avoid with this kid; it could mess up his confidence. He needs to concentrate on improving, and the fastest and best way for that is to play every day. And I'd rather have a better player for late 2012 or 2013 instead of a mediocre one now.

I honestly don't think that he'll hit much better than the catcher he would replace, and for the little actual playing time that he would see he shouldn't make much of a difference, unless he actually hits like Buster. The backup catcher is not the guy that is going to make or break this team's chances to hit the post season. He's not even 2nd or 3rd or even 5th or 9th on things to worry about which could influence a post-season run.

While this is not a bad post, there are two inaccuracies:

1. "AA is the make or break level" Generally not true for hitters. AAA is the level that generally decides whether or not a guy gets a shot in the majors.
2. "the pitching is much better in AAA" absolutely not true when comparing the SAL (where Richmond is) and the PCL (where Fresno is). In fact, Sabean was quoted last year saying something to the effect that "the pitching isn't very good in the PCL." Your statement may be true for other AA/AAA leagues, but not those in the Giants chain.

Otherwise, spot on. I agree that he shouldn't be accumulating ML service time while he could be working on his defense in AAA. I also believe he wouldn't, at this point, be enough of an offensive upgrade over Stewside to justify his inferior defense and accumulated service time.

 

[gp956]

ALL of this. Repped.

Kind of echoes my comments when we were discussing the backup C's, and KC maybe getting one, etc. Basically I figured backup catcher is about the least thing to worry about, so if the players love them some Whiteside, it doesn't matter that much if he sucks. That's what backup catchers do, they suck. Otherwise they wouldn't be backups. Other NL teams have shitty 8th and 9th hitters when their backups play too.

The backup catcher on the Giants will probably catch twice as many games as any other backup. Of the things still in question, and which the Giants can do something about, backup catcher is probably the area most deserving of scrutiny.

 

[SFGRTB]

Look at these bad boys:

Gnomes FTW!

 

[gp956]

While this is not a bad post, there are two inaccuracies:

1. "AA is the make or break level" Generally not true for hitters. AAA is the level that generally decides whether or not a guy gets a shot in the majors.
2. "the pitching is much better in AAA" absolutely not true when comparing the SAL (where Richmond is) and the PCL (where Fresno is). In fact, Sabean was quoted last year saying something to the effect that "the pitching isn't very good in the PCL." Your statement may be true for other AA/AAA leagues, but not those in the Giants chain.

Otherwise, spot on. I agree that he shouldn't be accumulating ML service time while he could be working on his defense in AAA. I also believe he wouldn't, at this point, be enough of an offensive upgrade over Stewside to justify his inferior defense and accumulated service time.

I think he meant between A and AAA. Cal league being largely a hitters league, it's reasonably to assume without need of further evidence. But to address the larger point being made: to use such a small sample size to confirm he couldn't handle the jump is a fail. For instance, in terms of OPS+, he hit better at the majors than in Fresno, do we conclude that Fresno has better pitching?

 

[tzill]

Tonight's lineup:

Pagan CF
Cabrera LF
Sandoval 3B
Huff 1B
Schierholtz RF
Arias SS
Fontenot 2B
Whiteside C
Burres LHP

They didn't want Timmy pitching to an NLW opponent this close to the season.

 

[gp956]

Anyone else besides me rooting for Jamie Moyer?

 

[MarcoPolo]

It's not surprising that he didn't hit well going from San Jose to Fresno - the pitching is a heck of a lot better in AAA.

Yes, I was comparing the pitching difference between San Jose and Fresno.

 

[msgkings322]

Anyone else besides me rooting for Jamie Moyer?

Yep, me too