Vea vs Payne

[countryroads316]

My God there nothing wrong with guice a 13 watch is type and some expert day he is the steal of the draft and watch b.j hill tape he can be had in 2nd round

massive drop off from Vea and Payne to the next NT's in the draft when there will be guys like Chubb,Michel and Penny in the 2nd

 

[Stymietee]

Gentlemen and Lady, we ARE going to address the DL in this draft at some point. I would love to have either Vea or Payne but what are the contingencies if neither is available to us?

Well, here's one who will drop in this draft because of heart concerns. If he can be medically cleared, add a few lower body pounds, and actually drops as predicted, he will be one of IDL steals in this draft.


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[gkekoa]

My God there nothing wrong with guice AT 13 watch his tape and some experts say he is the steal of the draft and watch b.j hill tape he can be had in 2nd round

You don’t play this game of another suitable guy will be there later, because he may not be, especially if he is as good as you think.

 

[Buffalo_Nickel_1]

I'm right it's going to be Guice either at 13 or a trade down .. sorry to piss people off but Guice is just as good as Barkley

 

[Ruzious]

The problem is Allen is still basically a rookie and having 2 First rookies on The Dline is over kill

You're going with a bad premise. You could maybe make that case if Allen was a developmental project, but he was ABT - anything but that. He stepped right in and played like a mature veteran.

If both are there and you have to pick one, it's an easy choice - Vea. He's the better run stopper, the better player, and the player who makes it easier for teammates to excel.

 

[Stymietee]

I'm right it's going to be Guice either at 13 or a trade down .. sorry to piss people off but Guice is just as good as Barkley

I don't think you're pissing anyone off, it's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

BTW: in as much as I like Guice, Ronald Jones II to me is a much better fit for what we do here.

 

[kbso83432]

My fear is that we burn an early pick on a back and find out Jay's run scheme doesn't work. It hasn't worked anywhere or any year yet.

 

[Clayton]

Ehh. Disagree. I’m not sure any player that just turned 23 is maxed out. Approximately 2 years difference in age might not make too much of a difference either when you could also argue that Vea is more ready to contribute now vs Payne who may take a year or two to get to his full potential.

I don’t know, would be happy with either of them. Both guys bring something different to the table. NTs traditional are more for eating up blocks and stuffing the run game, not rushing the QB. That’s what we need and where this team has struggled badly over the last several years. You are going to have at least one other guy on the roster to play that position, so assuming Vea can’t get it done, you stick another guy in there on 3rd and long. Just my 2 cents.

Maybe 'maxed out' is slightly extreme when it comes to Vea but I wouldn't immediately dismiss 2 years as a small thing, either.

I do think Vea is just flat out better as a NT. There is more violence to his game for a lack of a better word. I also suspect both players would be an upgrade for many teams. I would love for the Chiefs to get either one but they don't have the appropriate draft pick.

 

[Stymietee]

My fear is that we burn an early pick on a back and find out Jay's run scheme doesn't work. It hasn't worked anywhere or any year yet.

Good point, but let me ask, do you believe that Jay Gruden has it in him to adjust or incorporate into his offense those things that makes Smith more effective (RPO)? If not OK, I'm with you, but if so, doesn't that require adjustments to "his" run scheme?

 

[gkekoa]

The things that made Alex Smith more effective...

Travis Kelce
Tyreek Hill
Kareem Hunt

 

[Buffalo_Nickel_1]

Maybe Alex made them better

 

[kbso83432]

Good point, but let me ask, do you believe that Jay Gruden has it in him to adjust or incorporate into his offense those things that makes Smith more effective (RPO)? If not OK, I'm with you, but if so, doesn't that require adjustments to "his" run scheme?

I think he can adjust somewhat. He had some decent backs in Cincy and still was close to the bottom of the league. Maybe he's just pass happy and that's why the data shows what it shows, but when you consistently can't convert 3rd and 1 and everyone in the stadium knows you have no shot to do so is a problem.

RPO will be there which should help loosen up the defense and hopefully open up the run a little.

 

[gkekoa]

Maybe Alex made them better

Maybe. If he did, those are the first players in his career he made better. Kelce was good before AS got there BTW.

 

[redskin4209]

Maybe 'maxed out' is slightly extreme when it comes to Vea but I wouldn't immediately dismiss 2 years as a small thing, either.

I do think Vea is just flat out better as a NT. There is more violence to his game for a lack of a better word. I also suspect both players would be an upgrade for many teams. I would love for the Chiefs to get either one but they don't have the appropriate draft pick.

I think Vea is better suited for NT also while Payne is a better 4-3 DT. Payne is good when he's allowed to attack. Now Vea would be a problem when facing some one like Aron Rogers mo huddle offense. Vea is a pure NT pure and simple.

 

[Sleepy T]

The things that made Alex Smith more effective...

Travis Kelce
Tyreek Hill
Kareem Hunt

With the exception of a few guys, most QBs are going to be fairly limited wrt production based on the guys they have around them. Not trying to start another KC thread, but I believe a lot of his success was due to the fact that he had Pierre, D-Jax, Reed, Crowder, a very good supporting cast. Not so much at RB, but collectively that receiving group top to. Not Tom was as good as anyone in the league.

 

[redskin4209]

kbso83432 said:
My fear is that we burn an early pick on a back and find out Jay's run scheme doesn't work. It hasn't worked anywhere or any year yet.


Stymietee said
Good point, but let me ask, do you believe that Jay Gruden has it in him to adjust or incorporate into his offense those things that makes Smith more effective (RPO)? If not OK, I'm with you, but if so, doesn't that require adjustments to "his" run scheme?

kbso83432 said:
I think he can adjust somewhat. He had some decent backs in Cincy and still was close to the bottom of the league. Maybe he's just pass happy and that's why the data shows what it shows, but when you consistently can't convert 3rd and 1 and everyone in the stadium knows you have no shot to do so is a problem.


Interesting conversations. I am old school (1960 power running game) and I am a firm believer in Joe Gibbs RG. For the most part I think physicality/attitude of the offensive personnel is what makes the RG effective. There some exception like Shanahan RG. I just like the power physical RG better. So to me physicality wins football games. The spread offense is pretty popular today with QB putting up astonishing passing numbers but at the end of the day running between the tackle still remains the central core no matter what offense you run. Gruden blocking scheme just doesn't bring enough force at the point of attack like Joe Gibbs and other coaches. That's why we get negative or 0-2 yds on first down and may explain why Gruden is impatient with his RG.

Gruden should have been fired this yr and I believe this is his last yr. Good coaches are able to adapt their scheme to put their personnel in position to be successful. This is something Gruden is unable to do on a consistent basis. But we will see, the clock is ticking.

 

[Ruzious]

Maybe Alex made them better

And it's not like he won't have targets in DC. Reed and Thompson are among the best receivers at their positions. Crowder's a real good slot man. Doctson was a 1st rounder. Richardson is a speedster good enough to stretch the field. And Quick, Harris, and Davis are 6'3 athletes who can help off the bench.

I think it's silly to say Gruden should have been fired. They've had a terrible front office while he's been here and mediocre talent. How could he have developed a run game without a blocking TE and no decent RB other than the 3rd down back. Injuries were crushing last season. Is he a special coach? No, but unless we have someone special in mind to replace him with, it would be a very bad move to fire him at this point, and what good coaching candidate would want to work under Snyder/Allen?

 

[kbso83432]

kbso83432 said:
My fear is that we burn an early pick on a back and find out Jay's run scheme doesn't work. It hasn't worked anywhere or any year yet.


Stymietee said
Good point, but let me ask, do you believe that Jay Gruden has it in him to adjust or incorporate into his offense those things that makes Smith more effective (RPO)? If not OK, I'm with you, but if so, doesn't that require adjustments to "his" run scheme?

kbso83432 said:
I think he can adjust somewhat. He had some decent backs in Cincy and still was close to the bottom of the league. Maybe he's just pass happy and that's why the data shows what it shows, but when you consistently can't convert 3rd and 1 and everyone in the stadium knows you have no shot to do so is a problem.


Interesting conversations. I am old school (1960 power running game) and I am a firm believer in Joe Gibbs RG. For the most part I think physicality/attitude of the offensive personnel is what makes the RG effective. There some exception like Shanahan RG. I just like the power physical RG better. So to me physicality wins football games. The spread offense is pretty popular today with QB putting up astonishing passing numbers but at the end of the day running between the tackle still remains the central core no matter what offense you run. Gruden blocking scheme just doesn't bring enough force at the point of attack like Joe Gibbs and other coaches. That's why we get negative or 0-2 yds on first down and may explain why Gruden is impatient with his RG.

Gruden should have been fired this yr and I believe this is his last yr. Good coaches are able to adapt their scheme to put their personnel in position to be successful. This is something Gruden is unable to do on a consistent basis. But we will see, the clock is ticking.

While I agree his run game needs work, I think Gruden should be the last person to be fired. I love his passing game as well. I would fire Bruce and Manusky before Jay. Now Jay is defiantly on the hot seat and should be, but we have yet to field a competent defense.

I've seen him make average WRs look good. He just can't do that with his run game. We might be spoiled. Shanahan and Gibbs are probably two of the best to ever do it when it comes to the run. I guess I just don't want to see a high pick wasted because no matter who we put back there, the run scheme is fundamentally broken.

 

[gkekoa]

With the exception of a few guys, most QBs are going to be fairly limited wrt production based on the guys they have around them. Not trying to start another KC thread, but I believe a lot of his success was due to the fact that he had Pierre, D-Jax, Reed, Crowder, a very good supporting cast. Not so much at RB, but collectively that receiving group top to. Not Tom was as good as anyone in the league.

I said Alex has never made anybody better. Any time he has been replaced, his production was at least equaled.

KC put up good numbers last season with our leading receiver having under 800 yards.

 

[gkekoa]

And it's not like he won't have targets in DC. Reed and Thompson are among the best receivers at their positions. Crowder's a real good slot man. Doctson was a 1st rounder. Richardson is a speedster good enough to stretch the field. And Quick, Harris, and Davis are 6'3 athletes who can help off the bench.

I think it's silly to say Gruden should have been fired. They've had a terrible front office while he's been here and mediocre talent. How could he have developed a run game without a blocking TE and no decent RB other than the 3rd down back. Injuries were crushing last season. Is he a special coach? No, but unless we have someone special in mind to replace him with, it would be a very bad move to fire him at this point, and what good coaching candidate would want to work under Snyder/Allen?

Are they? Reed was ineffective when he was on the field last season. I know he was playing hurt but when is he not hurt? Thompson blindsided the league last season. Thompson also got hurt again. Crowder is solid but how good is he really? Richardson has done nothing in his career but maybe a guy not know for throwing it deep will take more shots. Doctson doesn’t get separation and Alex Smith WON’T and DOESN’T throw into coverage. Davis is decent but Harris and Quick hardly played last season.