The John Stockton Thread

[nuraman00]

Can you see if there's any clips of Baron Davis vs. Stockton?

I started liking Baron during the 2002 playoffs. Good aggressive penetrator, could do drives and kicks, and good at steals.

His first few years overlapped with Stockton, so wanted to see if there were any veteran vs. young player matchups.

Coincidentally, 2 years later, I watched Kirk Hinrich's first game against Baron, and even though Baron had 35 points, 10 assists, 5 steals, I actually thought Hinrich competed well and didn't back down, nor lose confidence.
I respected his perseverance to keep his head up and compete at both ends and still do a few good things, even though the statline was a big mismatch.

Sadly, I thought Davis got had habits, or compensated for injuries, by the time he got to Golden State. Thought he settled for 3-pointers too much, and that big physical defensive player wasn't there anymore. Maybe it was the recurring hamstring injuries he had the previous few years. But he just wasn't the same guy as he was from the Hornets.

So even though some people liked his dunk over Kirilenko in 2008, I didn't care, because he wasn't the same guy he was in the Hornets, when he was a better 2-way player.

I'm not saying Davis defensively, as a Hornet, was one of the top defenders, but he was pretty good for a PG.

Westbrook, and Kemba Walker, are the best two-way PGs of today's era. They're a little more consistent than Baron Davis.

They're still a little below Stockton / Payton / Kidd, though. Even Kidd, with his offensive peculiarities.

 

[MHSL82]

I'll get to these past two posts soon. I'm burnt out a bit that I don't even have the motivation to do something fun like sports message boards. Eek.

 

[nuraman00]

I'll get to these past two posts soon. I'm burnt out a bit that I don't even have the motivation to do something fun like sports message boards. Eek.

No problem. I'm just rambling about my thoughts, nothing important.

Also, I omitted Kyle Lowry above from the good modern two-way PGs. He's good, but on defense, he's like Chris Paul to me. Good for their size, but I prefer bigger PGs.

Terry Porter, Rod Strickland (whom you also mentioned last summer). Andre Miller.

Also, I don't think I've ever seen a Stockton vs. Mark Price matchup. I think I only saw Price for 2-3 games total too. Sad, because I would have really liked seeing those Cleveland-Utah games. Especially since I like inter-conference games.

I think I would have liked to see both Stockton and Price play well in the same game. But if I potentially disliked Price, then I would have wanted Stockton and the Jazz to completely outplay Cleveland.

Mark Price was really good.

I would have had fun with the FT shooting between Stockton and Price too.

The OTHER Cleveland vs. Utah thing I would have wanted to see, was Boozer get a win at Cleveland when he was a Jazz. He missed most of those games @ Cleveland due to injury over the years. Cavs fans would have been booing him, and I would have loved seeing Boozer have a 21 rebound game. The scoring isn't even that important, just that kind of rebounding that would have helped the Jazz win, would have been fun. Maybe toss in a few assists to Kirilenko or Okur.

 

[nuraman00]

Yeah, when you get a chance, maybe it's time to revisit the 3-pointer thing, and Sloan's strategy. That was one of the first things we talked about on the ESPN boards, when you were interested in whether the Jazz should or should not shoot more 3's, and whether they were giving up too many 3's.

Just whatever you think of the strategy, revisited, and maybe if the passage of time, and today's game, has had any impact on your thoughts.

 

[nuraman00]

I had been wanting to see someone shoot 100% for a series with at least 15 attempts in that series, preferably more. The closest I got was during the 2010 Finals, when Ray Allen was 100% through 6 games. I had been tracking this. He made his first miss in game 7. I screamed. That, and I was rooting for Boston too.

Apparently Kevin Martin went 29/29 in the Spurs series in 2006, wow.

Stockton went 20/20 in the 2003 playoffs!

Player Game Finder | Basketball-Reference.com

 

[nuraman00]

I had been wanting to see someone shoot 100% for a series with at least 15 attempts in that series, preferably more. The closest I got was during the 2010 Finals, when Ray Allen was 100% through 6 games. I had been tracking this. He made his first miss in game 7. I screamed. That, and I was rooting for Boston too.

Apparently Kevin Martin went 29/29 in the Spurs series in 2006, wow.

Stockton went 20/20 in the 2003 playoffs!

Player Game Finder | Basketball-Reference.com

BTW, I need to clear something up so there's no misunderstandings.

Fisher's name appears above as going 15/15. But that's over 19 playoffs games, so it spans an entire playoffs season. My requirement is to make a lot of attempts per series, i.e. at least 15 attempts per series (and even that's a little low, 22 or 23 would be better).

So Fisher doesn't make the cut. No one is going to care for someone taking 15 attempts over 19 games. Cmon.

I had to take the above query, and run 4 queries, one for each playoffs round, to get my desired results.

 

[nuraman00]

It seems like most of these guys that go 100% for a series lose their series. From my brief glance.

 

[MHSL82]

Fisher doesn't make the cut. No one is going to care for Fisher. Cmon.

Fixed it for you.

 

[nuraman00]

I'll also add that Hayward went 16-16 on FTs in the 2012 Spurs series. But who wants to remember that one, it was a bad sweep.

Yes, Stockton's 20 for 20 was also during a 1st round loss, but it was a 4 game best of 5 1st round series, and it was a (7) Jazz vs. (2) Kings matchup, so the Jazz weren't expected to beat the Kings.

Yes, the 2012 series was a (8) vs. (1), so another mismatch series. But by any measure, the games were a lot worse in the 2012 series, then the Stockton 2003 one.

So the 2003 one gets looked at a little more favorably, because at least the series was better.

Also, even if someone was great individually, the fact that the team lost a bad series in 2012 hurts, so who cares about one tiny bright spot when there was so much suckage in 2012.

 

[nuraman00]

Playoffs assists per game average:

NBA & ABA Career Playoff Leaders and Records for Assists Per Game | Basketball-Reference.com

Playoffs steals per game average!!!!!!!!!!!!

NBA & ABA Career Playoff Leaders and Records for Steals Per Game | Basketball-Reference.com

How can Stockton be 19th?


In the regular season, it's 2nd and 10th.

The regular season numbers aren't disappointing.

But in the playoffs, being 2.25 apg behind Johnson, and 0.42 behind Baron Davis (who is in 1st) is more disappointing. And he's behind Pippen too. I guess that picture of Pippen about to force Stockton into a turnover doesn't lie.

 

[MHSL82]

It's been a month and a half - time for a bump: Harbaugh sports Stockton jersey in Utah

 

[nuraman00]

Jeter?s fine but Stockton set bar on retiring | Rockmonster Unplugged

Some of it is about letting fans know that a player will retire. If he knows for sure.

So that fans who have never seen that player play before, might make more of an effort to finally see him. Or, see him for the last time live.

For the fans that didn't think Stockton was going to retire after 2002-2003 and thought they could have seen him next year, they missed out.

As for the commotion that comes about when it is known that player will retire, the player doesn't cause that as much as the media does. Also, the other teams are under scrutiny to appear classy and acknowledge the retiring player.

When retirement seasons are done right, they don't seem like a burden, but are more about fun.

For example, I like what happened during Chipper Jones farewell season.

The Padres gave him a surf board. That is great. It combines both the host city (San Diego, where surfing is prominent) with a personal message.

That's playful, and not overbearing or overly reverent.

And then people can write fun articles about Jones' gifts, like this:

Ranking Chipper Jones’ retirement gifts so far

I'm not saying one way to retire is wrong. But if I had always wanted to see Stockton live, and thought he'd be back next year, only to find out after the playoffs that he wasn't going to play anymore, I'd be a little disappointed in not having seen him live before. That's partly because I place a greater emphasis of seeing teams and players live than in person.

The Jeter send-off doesn't have to be as complicated as host cities or the media are making it out to be. A 1-2 acknowledgement and a funny gift are fine, if even that. For example, in Milwaukee, a funny beer glass is enough, with maybe someone from the Brewers presenting the gift in between innings.

If it were Stockton, even if it's not a gift, someone from the opposing team can recall their favorite moment watching Stockton. That way, it will give the fans in attendance that moment to remember.

Back to the topic of players retiring, and how they should announce it.

The bolded portion explains my frustration with players not announcing it.

My intent of a player announcing his retirement during a season, isn't because I want him to get a farewell tour.

It's because I want fans, such as myself, to get a chance to see that retiring player play live.

For some people who never got a chance to see that retiring player play live, but always wanted to, if they know that player is going to retire, they will do everything they can to see that player play live.

This past NBA offseason, we've had Tim Duncan, Raul Lopez, Luke Ridnour, Amare Stoudemire, and Willie Green retire.

Kevin Garnett, and Paul Pierce might also retire.

I saw Tim Duncan live once in 2002. That's it.

This past offseason, before Duncan announced his retirement, I thought there was a 0% chance he'd retire. I just didn't think someone could retire when his team won 67 games last year, had a great shot to win 60+ games next season, and be a contender again. I thought he'd be fine with an even more reduced role.

If I had never seen him play live, and I thought there was a 0% chance he'd retire, then I would have been starting to make plans to see him play live next season.

I felt the same way about Duncan, in terms of the timing of the retirement, and how astonished I was, as I did Stockton. I too thought there was a 0% chance he'd retire when he did. Stockton was playing so well, and his team was still making the playoffs. That's why I was surprised when he retired. I thought he'd be back, and I'd have another season of chances to see him live. I'm disappointed I never saw him live. I thought I could see him live another time.

Garnett, I used to like, but not after he went to Boston. I didn't like his behavior, and he was too petty against his former team, Minnesota. So I'm not as upset that I didn't see him live.

Paul Pierce is one of my favorite players too. So while I wish I'd seen him live once, I know I've had chances the past few years. So I put that more on me. Also, I can't be upset about missing out on so many players, and I just focus more of my frustration on missing out on Stockton.

I'm actually more upset that I didn't see Tony Parker when he was good, than I am at missing out on Pierce. A 2nd year Tony Parker isn't quite the same. I didn't know he would be as good as he was from 2006 - 2012, back in 2002. So while I saw Parker once (in that same 2002 game), it was just too early before he was good.

So, I think someone like Stockton could have announced he was going to retire mid season, but still done it in a low fanfare way, and he could have made it so that other teams wouldn't have ceremonies for him, if he wanted to keep it low key.

But, if Stockton didn't know he was going to retire until during the offseason, then I would just be out of luck.

I'm just saying that if a player knows he's going to retire, I want an announcement so that if it's someone I like, I can make a harder effort to see him live. I don't mind if he's at the end of his career, because I can still hope I see a special moment or two.

With someone like Pierce, at this stage of his career, there's also too great of a chance he'd barely get minutes. It has to be a player still capable of getting 15mpg at least, so there's a chance of that player having a few special moments.

I saw Barry Bonds once, during his last season. While he didn't get any hits, what was memorable was that the other Giants were having trouble fielding the ball. Bonds, even though he wasn't a great fielder anymore at that age, had a few good catches that game. So I can still have the positive memory that even though he didn't get a hit, he made some good plays fielding, and that's a good live memory for me. Especially on how ironic it was that the oldest guy who wasn't even a great fielder anymore, made the plays that day. I'm content with that memory of seeing Bonds live.

Hmm, even though I've seen Jerry Sloan live, I can't think of any unique memories. I should have paid more attention. I guess the same disappointment applies. If I had known he was going to stop coaching, I would have tried harder to find some unique live memory of him.

I also wish I could have seen Karl Malone live.

Ginobili was out with an injury during the Spurs game I saw.

 

[MHSL82]

I agree with Magic, no way is Stockton and Curry are above Isaiah Thomas... Only Stockton is.

NBA All-Time Leader in Points Accounted For: John Stockton?

 

[nuraman00]

I agree with Magic, no way is Stockton and Curry are above Isaiah Thomas... Only Stockton is.

NBA All-Time Leader in Points Accounted For: John Stockton?

Agreeing with Magic is like agreeing with Rony Seikaly, Byron Scott, or Derek Harper.

It has negative consequences; and causes internal self pollution.

 

[nuraman00]

In addition to 3's not being accounted for, I'd like to see FTs accounted for on and-ones.

 

[nuraman00]

How about a points saved stat? Anytime a player was in the act of shooting and got stolen or blocked. This should be weighted by that offensive players' FG% per season.

So, a shot attempt by an opposing player doesn't mean 2 or 3 points were saved. That shot attempt should be multiplied by that player's FG%.

 

[nuraman00]

So, how many points did Stockton save with his steals and blocks?

How does that compare against Hakeem, Kirilenko, Webber (players who could get blocks and steals)?

 

[MHSL82]

Obviously

Patriots tight end Martellus Bennett even went so far as to compare Brady – whose primary battery mate Sunday was steady-but-unheralded receiver Chris Hogan, who caught nine passes for a franchise postseason record of 180 yards and two touchdowns — to some notable NBA point guards from the past 20 years.

“John Stockton, Jason Williams, Chris Paul — guys like that make the team better with the way they distribute the ball and make things happen, and Tom’s like one of those great point guards you see in the NBA,” Bennett said

Read more here: Patriots beat Steelers by doing all the things the Chiefs didn’t

 

[nuraman00]

I am surprised this happened to Stockton, with how great of a defender he was. I guess if Michael Jordan can get crossed over (by Iverson), then even Stockton can have a tough moment.

It's an amazing play by Williams, though.

 

[nuraman00]

When Baron Davis entered the NBA, he said the players he was most excited about playing against were Tim Hardaway, John Stockton, and Allen Iverson.