Forbes financials. you know what's coming...

[Illinest]

The Business Of Baseball - Forbes

That's franchise values, and they also link to another article that shows estimated revenue and income (or in the case of the Dodgers, 90 million deficit. Ouch)

Feel free to explore as much as you like, but i've got a few things that i'd like to call your attention to:

The team that most closely matched the Pirates in my view (for a bunch or reasons, some of which might not be immediately apparent) is the Orioles, who actually made about 7 million less in gross revenue in 2013. The Orioles had an estimated net income of 1.5 million and a listed payroll of 105 million which strongly suggests that the Pirates could've afford to go up to about 100 million.

The Pirates listed their payroll at 80 million in 2013 but 13 million of that was being paid by other teams (wandy and aj) by the end of the year they maybe spent more like 74 million according to one site. Forbes also lists more than 20 million dollars in net income for the Pirates in 2013, so it once again suggests that the Pirates could've spent close to 100 million without exceeding their revenues.

For 2014 the increase in revenue sharing (which ranges from 20-25 million depending upon who you ask) should be added directly into the revenue figure and can be applied in its entirety to the player payroll.

So the Pirates should be able to spend up to about 120 million this year without going over budget, according to Forbes.

Other interesting tidbits include the fact that pittsburgh had more revenue than 10 other teams (including the Brewers) and was very close to 3 others including the Reds.

 

[thecrow124]

And to this I say, and this is only me, who cares?

Seriously, who cares? We won 94 games last regular season, and as the roster sits today, we should be in contention again. Maybe ownership could spend more money, maybe they can't, who cares as long as you win?

I am not saying any of this to be argumentative, I am just pointing out that last year we won 94 games with the payroll we had.

I would love to see ownership spend more, when they need to, heck they just signed Marte for 6 years, but again I go back to, the only player that I would argue they should have signed this offseason is Burnett.

I do understand what you are saying, the team should easily be able to spend more than they do, but without knowing what exactly they are using the money for, it makes it very hard to definitively fault them for not spending.

Another thing, you never know, they could have a lot of things in the works that could significantly increase payroll this year.........ya I don't buy that either.

 

[steelparrot]

According to them(and adding in the new national deals), our break even point does look to be around 120mill. Maybe they go off last years revenue when they make budgets(like just about everyone) and take the new tv money as 'I'll believe it when the check clears'.

According to Pirate Prospects we are at 74mill, and according to what I've read we are way under our own budget by around 13-15 mill, which puts us right at 90 million.

Imho NH tried to stretch the money to thin and pull off another Liriano/Martin offseason and it blew up in his face and turned into Barmes and Volquez. It doesnt hurt us long term, but its just real sucky to be 13-15 mill under budget this year.... oh well I guess paying off some of that 92 mill of debt isnt a bad thing though.

 

[Illinest]

Not stated - the nutting family paid 30 million to acquire the team in 1996. In 18 years the value of the franchise has gone up to more than 500 million. Although they won't realize any profits until they sell the team the appreciation in value means that they're clearing an extra 20 to 30 million dollars a year on top of the 20 that forbes estimated.

The takeaway from this is that even if you're worried about Nutting family profit margins (why?) You should know that they could probably afford to lose 15 to 20 million every single year, and yet still make money on their investment overall.

So it's safe to say that an owner like Cuban (for example) would have had no qualms about putting us in the 120 range this year. If he wanted to win bad enough he probably could've justified 140 million.

What could the pirates do with and extra 40-50 million dollars?
I say we sign Cano and trade for Price. Extend Price. Move Walker back to 3b again and move Pedro to 1b.

 

[element1286]

Yeah, I don't care, other than AJ, you can count on one hand how many reasonable deals were given out.

If you really expect Bob Nutting to break even or lose money on a year over year basis while his peers rake in the cash, you're insane. Business people aren't in the business of losing money, that includes your messiah Mark Cuban.

 

[element1286]

And really these aren't hard numbers, they are educated guesses, getting so granular with exact payroll numbers is pretty much garbage in garbage out analysis.

 

[Illinest]

I trust educated guesses a hell of a lot more than the protestations of liars.

The nuttings don't just profit, they rake in the profit. They stand to gain as much as 60 million dollars this season alone. This is on top of being capable of purchasing seven springs for 200 million. I came across quite a few complaints about the changes they've made there too btw.

The nuttings are greed-filled scumbag liars who significantly handicap the team's finances. There is no reason to take a year-by-year profit out of the revenues when the value of the franchise is rising as quickly as this. There are quite a few teams who do spend what they're able to spend. One of the only things that the Pirates excel in is the proportion of revenues that find their way into the owner's pockets.

 

[element1286]

Why would anyone own a business if their only payoff is equity if/when they decide to sell?

 

[Illinest]

Why would anyone own a sports team unless their primary concern is winning?

Just do me a favor - all of you - don't ever blame the Yankees again. Don't give me any bullshit about our "limited budget". Don't justify stupid baseball decisions.

The Nutting family is raping the organization. The team and the fans existed long before the Nuttings entered the picture and it deserves much better than this. If I had known that the Nuttings would do this I would've rather seen the team move to some other city instead. Fuck the Nuttings. They are our enemy.

 

[Darkstone42]

Why would anyone own a sports team unless their primary concern is winning?

Just do me a favor - all of you - don't ever blame the Yankees again. Don't give me any bullshit about our "limited budget". Don't justify stupid baseball decisions.

The Nutting family is raping the organization. The team and the fans existed long before the Nuttings entered the picture and it deserves much better than this. If I had known that the Nuttings would do this I would've rather seen the team move to some other city instead. Fuck the Nuttings. They are our enemy.

Because sports teams are frequently lucrative businesses?

Also, turning a profit year after year is more important than the year-to-year value appreciation. Money now is always more valuable than money later, especially in these magnitudes. Relying on appreciation of an investment as its only source of money-making, when you don't intend to sell and can turn a yearly profit is poor business. People do not get into a position in which they can purchase baseball teams if they practice poor business.

I'm sure budgets are set not on one year, but on several. I've also heard we're well under our budget this season. There is still a chance that changes. But even so, as long as the team is good, what does it matter how much money is spent? Certainly, losing Burnett was a mistake, and we should have at least made the qualifying offer, but other than that, I'm okay with what the Bucs did. And there's still time to do something more.

 

[Burgh Sports Rule]

Why would anyone own a sports team unless their primary concern is winning?

Just do me a favor - all of you - don't ever blame the Yankees again. Don't give me any bullshit about our "limited budget". Don't justify stupid baseball decisions.

The Nutting family is raping the organization. The team and the fans existed long before the Nuttings entered the picture and it deserves much better than this. If I had known that the Nuttings would do this I would've rather seen the team move to some other city instead. Fuck the Nuttings. They are our enemy.

Illinest, I certainly respect your opinion, you are a Great board member.

However, the Pirates a short time ago extended Cutch to a very reasonable deal, when many thought that they would not.

Just yesterday, the Pirates extended one of our very good young players in Starling Marte for 6yrs, plus option yrs, at a very reasonable price.

The Pirates have been pouring money in to the MLB Draft & in to international scouting & development ( See Gregory Polanco ) By all accounts from the so called experts, the Pirates have been doing some of the best drafting in all of baseball for that money.

With Cole already up here & JT & Polanco on the way shortly, plus more to come.

I think the fans should be pretty happy with what Neal Huntington & the Bucs brass has done.

You called for them to increase the payroll significantly this yr & I agree, to a point. I would have liked to have seen them do a little more on the FA market this yr.

However, The FA market this yr in all honesty was complete crap.

In a few yrs, Cano will not be worth the money the Mariners are paying him. My guess is, that the LAA are already regretting the money that they have given out to Albert Pujols & Josh Hamilton. You don't give those kind of contracts out to guys in Any sport, who are on on the other side of 30.

Trout should have gotten that kind of money & only him on that team.

The Pirates have been drafting Great. They have already extended Cutch & Marte to reasonable deals, team friendly deals. Hopefully with more such deals to come. Gregory Polanco, Taillon, Kingham & many others are on the way...

We may not exactly repeat last yrs success this yr? However, the Pirates are in really good shape to be able to compete for playoff spots & more for a long time, & the team will be strengthened in future yrs by homegrown talent that this organization scouted, drafted & signed & hopefully, extended.

The Pirates are not a perfect organization, to be sure... However, we are in a damn sight better shape then we have ever been, since the 70's.

The team & it's management has earned some trust. At least in the short term.

Just my thoughts...

Burgh

 

[element1286]

Why would anyone own a sports team unless their primary concern is winning?

Just do me a favor - all of you - don't ever blame the Yankees again. Don't give me any bullshit about our "limited budget". Don't justify stupid baseball decisions.

The Nutting family is raping the organization. The team and the fans existed long before the Nuttings entered the picture and it deserves much better than this. If I had known that the Nuttings would do this I would've rather seen the team move to some other city instead. Fuck the Nuttings. They are our enemy.

No reason they can't do both, how bad are the Giants and Cards brands hurting with their multiple championships in the past decade each and apparently making 50 mil/year.