Here we go - Bonds, Clemens, Sosa on the Hall of Fame ballot

[tzill]

Roger Maris - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Lots of puzzle pieces here that paint a sketchy picture. IMHO.

If only there was a proven causal link between steroids and hitting.

 

[HammerDown]

If only there was a proven causal link between steroids and hitting.

That's what Bonds' fans always say and at best it's diversionary. We all know what steroids are linked to and why these guys risk everything to take them. Asserting that there's no competitive advantage to be gained by baseball players taking steroids is ridiculous even for a dismissive Giants fan.

 

[powerchord86]

I disagree 100%







Seriously, though, I think you have to take it into consideration, but if Niekro is in, how can you EVER keep Bonds or Clemens out? And just curious... What is your opinion on Rose and/ or Jackson?

They broke the rules that were already in the books. They don't belong.

That also brings more gray area to the roids issue because there weren't technically any established rules against it. Players could chose to go down that road or do what they felt was right.

 

[powerchord86]

I understand your view and it's hard to argue against it. But I'm curious if you think Bonds and/or Clemens would have had a HOF career without the juice? I'm not saying that entitles them to be in the HOF but most baseball writers feel they're both HOFers without the juice. And as regards Clemens, wasn't he almost surely using HGH as a means to longevity and recovery?

And there's a whole other aspect to this debate and that's the fact that HGH is the closest thing to a miracle drug available today. And it's not illegal.

It's a non issue to me because once they started using in my mind they disrespected the game. It's totally up for debate but to me they didn't do the right thing.

 

[powerchord86]

Curious: Roiders don't belong, but Greeners do? How do you reconcile that?

I never said they do. In fact, they don't.

 

[dredinis21]

I never said they do. In fact, they don't.

Then you would need to disqualify everyone in the HOF who played from the 50's to the mid 70's.

 

[powerchord86]

Then you would need to disqualify everyone in the HOF who played from the 50's to the mid 70's.

Good point.

 

[calsnowskier]

They broke the rules that were already in the books. They don't belong.

That also brings more gray area to the roids issue because there weren't technically any established rules against it. Players could chose to go down that road or do what they felt was right.

That is almost my view exactly.

 

[tzill]

That's what Bonds' fans always say and at best it's diversionary. We all know what steroids are linked to and why these guys risk everything to take them. Asserting that there's no competitive advantage to be gained by baseball players taking steroids is ridiculous even for a dismissive Giants fan.

Hmm....a refusal to educate yourself...check. An argumentum ad populum fallacy...check.

Yep, we're done.

 

[tzill]

I never said they do. In fact, they don't.

I don't recall you, or anybody else over the last 50 years, complaining about that. Yet the steroid era is somehow evil?

Cmon, man. Where's your indignation over half of the HOF players from the fifties through the nineties?

 

[powerchord86]

I don't recall you, or anybody else over the last 50 years, complaining about that. Yet the steroid era is somehow evil?

Cmon, man. Where's your indignation over half of the HOF players from the fifties through the nineties?

It's all bad but what can you do? Nothing really. It is what it is.

 

[tzill]

It's all bad but what can you do? Nothing really. It is what it is.

That being the case, how can you keep out Bonds and Clemens?

 

[MarcoPolo]

I disagree 100%







Seriously, though, I think you have to take it into consideration, but if Niekro is in, how can you EVER keep Bonds or Clemens out? And just curious... What is your opinion on Rose and/ or Jackson?

IIRC, Rose agreed to a deal where he received a lifetime ban from MLB. I think Rose should be in the HOF but it should only happen after he dies, so that he will never see it or have the satisfaction. This correlates well with "the deal".

 

[powerchord86]

That being the case, how can you keep out Bonds and Clemens?

I meant that in regard to those already in. Bonds and Clemens could be held out since they were exposed but they are on the ballot so only time will tell if they get voted in. I kind of have a feeling they will get in eventually though. Question is how long will it take?

 

[powerchord86]

IIRC, Rose agreed to a deal where he received a lifetime ban from MLB. I think Rose should be in the HOF but it should only happen after he dies, so that he will never see it or have the satisfaction. This correlates well with "the deal".

 

[SF11704]

This may not be the answer .... but it is an interesting read ... sorry if it is already somewhere in this thread ... http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/09/s...-of-fame-voting-process-must-change.html?_r=0

 

[tzill]

I meant that in regard to those already in. Bonds and Clemens could be held out since they were exposed but they are on the ballot so only time will tell if they get voted in. I kind of have a feeling they will get in eventually though. Question is how long will it take?

You're dodging the question. How can you justify keeping Bonds and Clemens out if you're not going to go back and throw out all known greenie users?

You can't have it both ways. PEDs are either DQ worthy or they aren't.

 

[powerchord86]

You're dodging the question. How can you justify keeping Bonds and Clemens out if you're not going to go back and throw out all known greenie users?

You can't have it both ways. PEDs are either DQ worthy or they aren't.

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. What I was trying to say is that once someone is in you can't just take them out. It just doesn't seem right to me. I say put an asterisk by the names and let it be. Maybe if the media had made as big of an issue of the greenies things would be different. Today's media is very different and the roids thing has been blown up big time.

I know I'm a hard-ass about the PED's thing but really at the end of the day it is all part of the game and it's history. I'm sure eventually the correct call will be made. MLB is a great organization and you can usually count on them to do the right thing or at least try to.

 

[HammerDown]

I meant that in regard to those already in. Bonds and Clemens could be held out since they were exposed but they are on the ballot so only time will tell if they get voted in. I kind of have a feeling they will get in eventually though. Question is how long will it take?

It's gonna take some time. I think it will be interesting to see how the legacies of Clemens and Bonds are affected over the next decade. Pete Rose won't make it but I think Clemens and Bonds will when the righteous indignation of the baseball purists dies down. Right now there's not much room for discussion.

 

[Heathbar012]

It's gonna take some time. I think it will be interesting to see how the legacies of Clemens and Bonds are affected over the next decade. Pete Rose won't make it but I think Clemens and Bonds will when the righteous indignation of the baseball purists dies down. Right now there's not much room for discussion.

... which, in turn, makes the righteous indignation absurd. Everyone knows that they will be in eventually, but this "stand" is somehow warranted. It's the never-coulds (even with PEDs) trying to stick it to the millionaire cheaters (even though there were no enforced rules) while none of it affects the billionaire enablers (like it would matter). All for the "sanctity" of some silly museum. Ridiculous.